[Advaita-l] Narada Purana - Returning to earth even after attaining the Vaishnava-Parama pada

[Sangeerth P]

पुरुषान्न परं किंचित्सा काष्ठा सा परा गतिः- With this line in the Upanishad
one can make this distinction sir.
And for the examples of Jaya and Vijaya curse or Narada purana one, you can
clearly see a pattern of returning. Hence that Vaikunta has to be Karya
Vaikunta. Its from Arthapathi, we come to conclusion.
I will check for references from our Purvacharyas where they have mentioned
it. Currently I dont recall where exactly this is stated.
Regards
Sangeerth P
8608658009


On Tue, Aug 12, 2025 at 1:33 PM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Aug 12, 2025 at 11:56 AM Sangeerth P <psangeerthgenius at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Yes sir. We actually say this is a returnable loka only and bakthi yoga
>> or prapatti is the means to reach the non returnable nitya vibhuti
>> Vaikuntam.
>>
>
> In any case, the same 'tad vishnoH paramam padam' will have two meanings:
> 1.nitya vibhuti and 2, returnable bhoga loka. But how can both be '
> *parama* pada'?  The first will have to be parama and the second will be
> a-parama, like Para Brahman and Apara Brahman.
>
>>
>> Regards
>> Sangeerth P
>> 8608658009
>>
>> On Tue, 12 Aug 2025, 11:52 am V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 12, 2025 at 11:29 AM Sangeerth P <psangeerthgenius at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Its karya Vaikuntham not karana sir. Karya(effect of srushti)
>>>>
>>>
>>> OK, is this karya vaikuntha on the same level as Brahma loka and Shiva
>>> loka?
>>>
>>> regards
>>> subbu
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Sangeerth P
>>>> 8608658009
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 12 Aug 2025, 11:26 am V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 11, 2025 at 11:33 PM Sangeerth P <
>>>>> psangeerthgenius at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Namaste sir
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. The Mahalakshmi ashtotram acceptability in what sense I am not
>>>>>> able to understand sir. Also it was just an example that I wanted to tell.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Since the Ashtottaram says  *Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva-Atmikayai Namaha*,
>>>>> Mahalakshmi will have to be the antaryami of Vishnu too. Is this acceptable
>>>>> to Srivaishnavas?  For the Atharvashikha mantra 'Brahma Vishnu Rudra Indra
>>>>> - all are born of Shambhu', Ramanuja in his Vedarthasangraha says: while
>>>>> Brahma, Rudra, etc. are born of their karma, Vishnu here is avatara.
>>>>> Shambhu here is Narayana.  So says Ramanuja.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also what is meant by kārana vaikuntha? Is this vaikuntha the cause -
>>>>> for what?
>>>>>
>>>>> regards
>>>>> subbu
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. As I have told its an Arthapaththi pramana. You infer at which
>>>>>> place Vishnu refers to the one in Karya Vaikunta and at which place Vishnu
>>>>>> refers to Nitya Vibhuti Vaikuntam. Its purely inferential and will come
>>>>>> through the lineage. Because the same place (Vaikunta) cant be told be
>>>>>> un-returnable as well as returnable. It would be a contradictory. And hence
>>>>>> this has to be taken through Arthapathi pramanam.
>>>>>> 3. As told in the above point in Katha Upanishad one refers to the
>>>>>> Vishnu in Sri Vaikuntam(Nitya vibhuti). Narada purana would refer to Karya
>>>>>> Vaikuntam.
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Sangeerth P
>>>>>> 8608658009
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 11, 2025 at 11:04 PM V Subrahmanian <
>>>>>> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 11, 2025 at 9:25 PM Sangeerth P via Advaita-l <
>>>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In Vishishtadvaita philosophy, we make a clear distinction between
>>>>>>>> *Vishnu*
>>>>>>>> and *Narayana* in certain contexts. For example, in the *Mahalakshmi
>>>>>>>> Ashtothram*, one of Mahalakshmi’s names is
>>>>>>>> *Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva-Atmikayai
>>>>>>>> Namaha*. If Narayana is the *Aadhara* (support) of everything, and
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> Vishnu and Narayana were entirely identical in all aspects, then
>>>>>>>> how could
>>>>>>>> Mahalakshmi be described as the *Atma* (inner self) of Vishnu?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Namaste
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is this *Mahalakshmi Ashtothram* acceptable to Srivaishnavas? Also,
>>>>>>> is the two-type Vaikuntha that Ramanuja system accepts, admitted in any
>>>>>>> Purana like the Bhagavatam?  There we see the Jaya-Vijaya episode happening
>>>>>>> in 'Vaikuntha' and no adjective like kārya is added there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the Rangaramanuja Kathopanishad bhashya we see:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4. कठोपनिषत् - प्रथमा वल्ली
>>>>>>> - मम उपदेशात्, जानीहि इत्यर्थः । ज्ञानस्य फलं दर्शयति -
>>>>>>> स्वर्ग्यमग्निं इति । अनन्तस्य - विष्णोः लोकः, तत्प्राप्तिम् । *तद्विष्णोः
>>>>>>> परमं पदम्' *(क.उ.३-९) इति उत्तरत्र वक्ष्यमाणत्वात् । अथो -
>>>>>>> तत्प्राप्यनन्तरं प्रतिष्ठाम् - *अपुनरावृत्तिं *च; 'लभते' इति शेषः ।
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The above says: tad vishnoH paramam padam = the mukti from where *there
>>>>>>> is no return.* In the Narada Purana verses cited, we have this
>>>>>>> alluding to that  *तद्विष्णोः परमं पदम् ।*। २३-८७  from where the people
>>>>>>> return after experiencing bhoga for long.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> regards
>>>>>>> subbu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Similarly, consider the episode of the Sanakadi Rishis reaching
>>>>>>>> Vaikuntha
>>>>>>>> and cursing Jaya and Vijaya. Even after this, we see Jaya and
>>>>>>>> Vijaya born
>>>>>>>> in the material realm. This raises two important points:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    1.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    If the Sanat Kumaras had truly reached *Nitya Vaikuntha*, they
>>>>>>>> would not
>>>>>>>>    be seen anywhere else, such as in Brahmaloka. But we see that at
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>    beginning of Bhagavatham's Mahatmyam only there is Narada and
>>>>>>>> Sanat kumara
>>>>>>>>    samvada which is at the beginning of Kali yuga. And the Jaya
>>>>>>>> vijaya
>>>>>>>>    incident should have happened very before this meeting.
>>>>>>>>    2.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    If Vaikuntha were a place of *non-return*, then the curse on
>>>>>>>> Jaya and
>>>>>>>>    Vijaya could not have led them back into *samsara*.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thus in Vishishtadvaita, we clearly differentiate between two
>>>>>>>> realms: *Karya
>>>>>>>> Vaikuntha* and *Nitya Vibhuti Vaikuntha*. It is the *Nitya Vibhuti
>>>>>>>> Vaikuntha* that is the true eternal, non-returnable abode, not the
>>>>>>>> Karya
>>>>>>>> Vaikuntha. For instance, in the *Uttara Kanda* of the Ramayana,
>>>>>>>> when Lord
>>>>>>>> Rama takes all the people of Ayodhya to His *Dham*, this refers to
>>>>>>>> *Karya
>>>>>>>> Vaikuntha*, not Nitya Vaikuntha. As per the siddhanta, the mukti
>>>>>>>> can be
>>>>>>>> obtained either by Bhakthi yogam or Sharanagati.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This understanding is supported by *Arthapatti Pramana.*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>> Sangeerth P
>>>>>>>> 8608658009
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>