[Advaita-l] Narada Purana - Returning to earth even after attaining the Vaishnava-Parama pada

[V Subrahmanian]

On Tue, Aug 12, 2025 at 11:56 AM Sangeerth P <psangeerthgenius at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Yes sir. We actually say this is a returnable loka only and bakthi yoga or
> prapatti is the means to reach the non returnable nitya vibhuti Vaikuntam.
>

In any case, the same 'tad vishnoH paramam padam' will have two meanings:
1.nitya vibhuti and 2, returnable bhoga loka. But how can both be '*parama*
pada'?  The first will have to be parama and the second will be a-parama,
like Para Brahman and Apara Brahman.

>
> Regards
> Sangeerth P
> 8608658009
>
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2025, 11:52 am V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 12, 2025 at 11:29 AM Sangeerth P <psangeerthgenius at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Its karya Vaikuntham not karana sir. Karya(effect of srushti)
>>>
>>
>> OK, is this karya vaikuntha on the same level as Brahma loka and Shiva
>> loka?
>>
>> regards
>> subbu
>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Sangeerth P
>>> 8608658009
>>>
>>> On Tue, 12 Aug 2025, 11:26 am V Subrahmanian, <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 11, 2025 at 11:33 PM Sangeerth P <
>>>> psangeerthgenius at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste sir
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. The Mahalakshmi ashtotram acceptability in what sense I am not able
>>>>> to understand sir. Also it was just an example that I wanted to tell.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since the Ashtottaram says  *Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva-Atmikayai Namaha*,
>>>> Mahalakshmi will have to be the antaryami of Vishnu too. Is this acceptable
>>>> to Srivaishnavas?  For the Atharvashikha mantra 'Brahma Vishnu Rudra Indra
>>>> - all are born of Shambhu', Ramanuja in his Vedarthasangraha says: while
>>>> Brahma, Rudra, etc. are born of their karma, Vishnu here is avatara.
>>>> Shambhu here is Narayana.  So says Ramanuja.
>>>>
>>>> Also what is meant by kārana vaikuntha? Is this vaikuntha the cause -
>>>> for what?
>>>>
>>>> regards
>>>> subbu
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> 2. As I have told its an Arthapaththi pramana. You infer at which
>>>>> place Vishnu refers to the one in Karya Vaikunta and at which place Vishnu
>>>>> refers to Nitya Vibhuti Vaikuntam. Its purely inferential and will come
>>>>> through the lineage. Because the same place (Vaikunta) cant be told be
>>>>> un-returnable as well as returnable. It would be a contradictory. And hence
>>>>> this has to be taken through Arthapathi pramanam.
>>>>> 3. As told in the above point in Katha Upanishad one refers to the
>>>>> Vishnu in Sri Vaikuntam(Nitya vibhuti). Narada purana would refer to Karya
>>>>> Vaikuntam.
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Sangeerth P
>>>>> 8608658009
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 11, 2025 at 11:04 PM V Subrahmanian <
>>>>> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 11, 2025 at 9:25 PM Sangeerth P via Advaita-l <
>>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Vishishtadvaita philosophy, we make a clear distinction between
>>>>>>> *Vishnu*
>>>>>>> and *Narayana* in certain contexts. For example, in the *Mahalakshmi
>>>>>>> Ashtothram*, one of Mahalakshmi’s names is
>>>>>>> *Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva-Atmikayai
>>>>>>> Namaha*. If Narayana is the *Aadhara* (support) of everything, and if
>>>>>>> Vishnu and Narayana were entirely identical in all aspects, then how
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> Mahalakshmi be described as the *Atma* (inner self) of Vishnu?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Namaste
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this *Mahalakshmi Ashtothram* acceptable to Srivaishnavas? Also,
>>>>>> is the two-type Vaikuntha that Ramanuja system accepts, admitted in any
>>>>>> Purana like the Bhagavatam?  There we see the Jaya-Vijaya episode happening
>>>>>> in 'Vaikuntha' and no adjective like kārya is added there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the Rangaramanuja Kathopanishad bhashya we see:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4. कठोपनिषत् - प्रथमा वल्ली
>>>>>> - मम उपदेशात्, जानीहि इत्यर्थः । ज्ञानस्य फलं दर्शयति -
>>>>>> स्वर्ग्यमग्निं इति । अनन्तस्य - विष्णोः लोकः, तत्प्राप्तिम् । *तद्विष्णोः
>>>>>> परमं पदम्' *(क.उ.३-९) इति उत्तरत्र वक्ष्यमाणत्वात् । अथो -
>>>>>> तत्प्राप्यनन्तरं प्रतिष्ठाम् - *अपुनरावृत्तिं *च; 'लभते' इति शेषः ।
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The above says: tad vishnoH paramam padam = the mukti from where *there
>>>>>> is no return.* In the Narada Purana verses cited, we have this
>>>>>> alluding to that  *तद्विष्णोः परमं पदम् ।*। २३-८७  from where the people
>>>>>> return after experiencing bhoga for long.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> regards
>>>>>> subbu
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Similarly, consider the episode of the Sanakadi Rishis reaching
>>>>>>> Vaikuntha
>>>>>>> and cursing Jaya and Vijaya. Even after this, we see Jaya and Vijaya
>>>>>>> born
>>>>>>> in the material realm. This raises two important points:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    1.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    If the Sanat Kumaras had truly reached *Nitya Vaikuntha*, they
>>>>>>> would not
>>>>>>>    be seen anywhere else, such as in Brahmaloka. But we see that at
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>    beginning of Bhagavatham's Mahatmyam only there is Narada and
>>>>>>> Sanat kumara
>>>>>>>    samvada which is at the beginning of Kali yuga. And the Jaya
>>>>>>> vijaya
>>>>>>>    incident should have happened very before this meeting.
>>>>>>>    2.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    If Vaikuntha were a place of *non-return*, then the curse on Jaya
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>    Vijaya could not have led them back into *samsara*.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thus in Vishishtadvaita, we clearly differentiate between two
>>>>>>> realms: *Karya
>>>>>>> Vaikuntha* and *Nitya Vibhuti Vaikuntha*. It is the *Nitya Vibhuti
>>>>>>> Vaikuntha* that is the true eternal, non-returnable abode, not the
>>>>>>> Karya
>>>>>>> Vaikuntha. For instance, in the *Uttara Kanda* of the Ramayana, when
>>>>>>> Lord
>>>>>>> Rama takes all the people of Ayodhya to His *Dham*, this refers to
>>>>>>> *Karya
>>>>>>> Vaikuntha*, not Nitya Vaikuntha. As per the siddhanta, the mukti can
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> obtained either by Bhakthi yogam or Sharanagati.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This understanding is supported by *Arthapatti Pramana.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Sangeerth P
>>>>>>> 8608658009
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>