[Advaita-l] [advaitin] rAma-krishna-shiva-durga etc. are not same in shAstric vyavahAra!!!

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Bhaskar ji,

The answer to your question can be found in the bhAshya
sentence स्यात्परमेश्वरस्यापीच्छावशान्मायामयं रूपं साधकानुग्रहार्थम्.

The difference in the upAdhi-s in the case of jIva-s like indrAdi devatA-s
and Ishvara avatAra-s is as follows:

1) Cause: the sharIra-s (upAdhi) that jIva-s such as indrAdi-s have is
because of karma phala, a result of their karma-s, whereas in the case of
Ishvara avatAra-s such as Rama Krishna, Devi etc the form they take is
merely a result of Ishvara sankalpa (इच्छावशात् in the bhAShya vAkya), not
due to Ishvara's karma phala - Ishvara has no karma, and no karma phala.

2) Nature: the nature of the upAdhi-s in the case of jIva svarUpa-s is
sthUla/sUkshma sharIrarUpa whereas in the case of Ishvara avatAra-s it is
mAyAmaya sharIra (मायामयं रूपम् in the vAkya). That is why it is possible
for Ishvara to take the form of Narasimha simply inside the pillar in an
instant - the moment Prahlada says that He is present there.

3) The purpose: the birth of jIva-s as Indra etc is to exhaust the karma
phala through experience, whereas the bodies taken by Ishvara avatAra-s is
for the purpose of blessing the sAdhaka / loka kalyANa (साधकानुग्रहार्थम्
in the vAkya).

Regards,
Venkatraghavan


On Tue, 7 Feb 2023, 09:08 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin, <
advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:

> praNAms Sri Venkataraghavan prabhuji
>
> Hare Krishna
>
>
>
> I am still not clear about categorizing some devata’s upAdhi as jeeva
> upAdhi and some main deities upAdhi as Ishwara upAdhi.  My contention is
> very simple and clear, as per Advaita Chaitanya is one which is birthless,
> deathless but still appears in nAnA rUpa (ajAyamAno bahudA vijAyate), in
> that case how can we differentiate some upAdhi sahita chaitanya as devata
> gaNa (mere tiny jeeva) and some upAdhi sahita Chaitanya as omni potent,
> omni scient sarveshwara like rAma krishna.or vishNu-shiva!!??  If we ignore
> the upAdhi what remains is kevala Chaitanya is it not??  And here the main
> question is, in shAstra vyavahAra whether the names and forms (upAdhi-s)
> prescribed by shAstra-s to do upAsana are different or not??  shAstra and
> bhAshya say yes it is different and result of upAsana of these different
> devata-s are also different.  Under these circumstances though upAdhi-s in
> its kAraNa swarUpa is ekam eva adviteeyam and we doing the upAsana not to
> mere names and forms but Chaitanya  the ‘chaitanya’ in its personification
> form sOpAdhika rUpa is different only and that difference is equally
> applicable to main deities like shivAdi gods and indrAdi devata-s and
> sakala sthAvara jaNgama-s.  In this scenario the upAdhi of shiva is
> entirely different from vishNu, devi’s upAdhi entirely different from that
> of vinAyaka, rudra gaNa, shaNmukha or sUrya.  And this bheda vyavahAra is
> obvious in shAstra / vaidika vyavahAra where there is jnAtru, jneya, jnana
> triputi hold sway.  And ultimately, from the paramArtha view point what is
> there is kevala nirupAdhika Chaitanya and there is no jeeva, nor deva gaNa
> and nor Ishwara.  As long as we don’t realize this what is the problem in
> accepting bheda among different deva-devata-s and what is the problem in
> expecting different fruits (phala) from doing upAsana to different
> devata-s??  IMO, doing the upAsana to particular form (ishta devata)
> keeping it separate from other forms of deities is not the problem but
> problem starts only when we start screaming “my daddy is strongest” and
> other should surrender to him or inferior to him.  This hierarchical
> treatment is dangerous and leads to fanaticism.
>
>
>
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>
>
>
> *Bhaskar YR*
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* advaitin at googlegroups.com <advaitin at googlegroups.com> *On Behalf
> Of *Venkatraghavan S
> *Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 5:47 PM
> *To:* advaitin at googlegroups.com
> *Cc:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [advaitin] rAma-krishna-shiva-durga etc. are not same in
> shAstric vyavahAra!!!
>
>
>
> *Warning*
>
>
>
> This email comes from outside of Hitachi Energy. Make sure you *verify
> the sender* before clicking any links or downloading/opening attachments.
> If this email looks suspicious, *report it* by clicking 'Report Phishing'
> button in Outlook.
> See the SecureWay group in Yammer for more security information.
>
> Namaste Bhaskar ji,
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 11:45 AM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <
> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> praNAms Sri Venkataraghavan prabhuji
>
> Hare Krishna
>
>
>
> Thank you. Yes there is tAratamyatA among the deva-s - ie agni, indra, all
> the way up to hiraNyagarbha - because they are all ultimately jIva-s.
>
>
>
> Ø     Ultimately jeeva-s!!??  kindly elaborate.  The Rigveda mantra ekaM
> sat viprA bahudA vadanti continues to say that : agni, yamaM
> mAtarishwAnamAhuH, those who have been addressed as : indra, mitra, varuNa,
> agni etc. behind all these there is only one reality.  So, I think your
> statement :  *ultimately* jeeva-s needs bit elaboration.
>
> That these devatA-s are all jIva-s are known from several places from the
> shruti and the bhAShya  - hiraNyagarbha is called prathamajah (first born)
> in many places. The ekam sat viprA bahudhA vadanti calls these devatA-s as
> sat, not in their devatAsvarUpa, but in their kAraNa svarUpa as Brahman. So
> SAyaNAchArya in his bhAShya for this rig mantra says : कथं एकस्य
> नानात्वमुच्यते - अमुमेवादित्यम् एकं एव वस्तुतः सन्तं विप्राः मेधाविनः
> देवतातत्त्वविदः बहुधा वदन्ति | तत्तत्कार्यकारणेन इन्द्राद्यात्मानं वदन्ति
> ...सूर्यस्य ब्रह्मणोऽनन्यत्वेन सार्वात्म्यमुक्तं भवति |
>
>
>
> So indra etc are not Ishvara as indra, but in the kAraNa svarUpa of
> indrAdi devatA-s. As indrAdi they are jIva-s only.
>
>
>
>  However there is no tAratamyatA among various forms of Ishvara. The devI
> being worshipped during navarAtrI is equal to Shiva being worshipped during
> shivarAtri who is equal to the Rama being worshipped during rAmanavamI -
> both are forms of Ishvara only, but a particular name and form of the
> Ishvara is being worshipped there, for ease of worship.
>
>
>
> Ø     The upasiddhAnta that I can draw from this is ( I may be wrong
> here) Ishwara’s form or vyAkruta rUpa is restricted to some specified
> celebrities in celestial abode like devi, rAma, Krishna, shiva etc. but not
> IndrAdi devata.  If that is the case this difference between indrAdi devata
> (ultimately jeeva-s) and other main deva-devata  not something related to
> upAdhi but something else!!??  Or am I missing something here??  Please
> clarify.
>
>
>
> It is definitely possible to worship indrAdi devatAs in their kAraNa
> svarUpa as Ishvara (where the shruti enjoins so), and in doing that, such
> an upAsana is not indra upAsana - it is Ishvara upAsana only. That is why
> when we are worshipping devI, rAma, Krishna, shiva, while we are
> worshipping the names and forms, we are not worshipping them as names and
> forms, but as names and forms *of *Ishvara.
>
>
>
> The shAstra is giving us these names and forms as "tools" to be able to
> conceptualise that which is beyond conceptualisation. Which form of Ishvara
> is to be worshipped and how that form is to be worshipped is not something
> that we can take up independently - it has to be something that is enjoined
> in the shAstra-s. There will be differences in the manner of worship for
> each name and form - because the shAstra-s gives us those differences.
>
>
>
> So the siddhAnta is *not* that only some forms *are* Ishvara and others
> are not (because Ishvara is sarvAtmakah), but rather, *what* the shAstra
> says that one should accept as a form of Ishvara fit to be worshipped, is
> to be worshipped *as* Ishvara, not *as a name and form*.
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Venkatraghavan
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "advaitin" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAL34aE%3DwWiQmGiPL5YOvBee0PdRhCawAV4BQ2Di7BPocK7N3zA%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Fadvaitin%2FCAL34aE%253DwWiQmGiPL5YOvBee0PdRhCawAV4BQ2Di7BPocK7N3zA%2540mail.gmail.com%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dfooter&data=05%7C01%7Cbhaskar.yr%40hitachienergy.com%7C606ddd30ca1b4403988208db083c1eb3%7C7831e6d9dc6c4cd19ec61dc2b4133195%7C0%7C0%7C638112826534767802%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1l8TQBR9dW99VMk9bTbmts5qeM5mAA4lun1%2BTG41kcg%3D&reserved=0>
> .
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "advaitin" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/AM7PR06MB6581DE1140BADBD205DE5EBB84DB9%40AM7PR06MB6581.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/AM7PR06MB6581DE1140BADBD205DE5EBB84DB9%40AM7PR06MB6581.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>