[Advaita-l] [advaitin] rAma-krishna-shiva-durga etc. are not same in shAstric vyavahAra!!!

[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms Sri Venkataraghavan prabhuji
Hare Krishna

I am still not clear about categorizing some devata’s upAdhi as jeeva upAdhi and some main deities upAdhi as Ishwara upAdhi.  My contention is very simple and clear, as per Advaita Chaitanya is one which is birthless, deathless but still appears in nAnA rUpa (ajAyamAno bahudA vijAyate), in that case how can we differentiate some upAdhi sahita chaitanya as devata gaNa (mere tiny jeeva) and some upAdhi sahita Chaitanya as omni potent, omni scient sarveshwara like rAma krishna.or vishNu-shiva!!??  If we ignore the upAdhi what remains is kevala Chaitanya is it not??  And here the main question is, in shAstra vyavahAra whether the names and forms (upAdhi-s) prescribed by shAstra-s to do upAsana are different or not??  shAstra and bhAshya say yes it is different and result of upAsana of these different devata-s are also different.  Under these circumstances though upAdhi-s in its kAraNa swarUpa is ekam eva adviteeyam and we doing the upAsana not to mere names and forms but Chaitanya  the ‘chaitanya’ in its personification form sOpAdhika rUpa is different only and that difference is equally applicable to main deities like shivAdi gods and indrAdi devata-s and sakala sthAvara jaNgama-s.  In this scenario the upAdhi of shiva is entirely different from vishNu, devi’s upAdhi entirely different from that of vinAyaka, rudra gaNa, shaNmukha or sUrya.  And this bheda vyavahAra is obvious in shAstra / vaidika vyavahAra where there is jnAtru, jneya, jnana triputi hold sway.  And ultimately, from the paramArtha view point what is there is kevala nirupAdhika Chaitanya and there is no jeeva, nor deva gaNa and nor Ishwara.  As long as we don’t realize this what is the problem in accepting bheda among different deva-devata-s and what is the problem in expecting different fruits (phala) from doing upAsana to different devata-s??  IMO, doing the upAsana to particular form (ishta devata) keeping it separate from other forms of deities is not the problem but problem starts only when we start screaming “my daddy is strongest” and other should surrender to him or inferior to him.  This hierarchical treatment is dangerous and leads to fanaticism.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

Bhaskar YR


From: advaitin at googlegroups.com <advaitin at googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Venkatraghavan S
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 5:47 PM
To: advaitin at googlegroups.com
Cc: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Subject: Re: [advaitin] rAma-krishna-shiva-durga etc. are not same in shAstric vyavahAra!!!

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Namaste Bhaskar ji,

On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 11:45 AM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <advaitin at googlegroups.com<mailto:advaitin at googlegroups.com>> wrote:
praNAms Sri Venkataraghavan prabhuji
Hare Krishna

Thank you. Yes there is tAratamyatA among the deva-s - ie agni, indra, all the way up to hiraNyagarbha - because they are all ultimately jIva-s.


>     Ultimately jeeva-s!!??  kindly elaborate.  The Rigveda mantra ekaM sat viprA bahudA vadanti continues to say that : agni, yamaM mAtarishwAnamAhuH, those who have been addressed as : indra, mitra, varuNa, agni etc. behind all these there is only one reality.  So, I think your statement :  ultimately jeeva-s needs bit elaboration.
That these devatA-s are all jIva-s are known from several places from the shruti and the bhAShya  - hiraNyagarbha is called prathamajah (first born) in many places. The ekam sat viprA bahudhA vadanti calls these devatA-s as sat, not in their devatAsvarUpa, but in their kAraNa svarUpa as Brahman. So SAyaNAchArya in his bhAShya for this rig mantra says : कथं एकस्य नानात्वमुच्यते - अमुमेवादित्यम् एकं एव वस्तुतः सन्तं विप्राः मेधाविनः देवतातत्त्वविदः बहुधा वदन्ति | तत्तत्कार्यकारणेन इन्द्राद्यात्मानं वदन्ति ...सूर्यस्य ब्रह्मणोऽनन्यत्वेन सार्वात्म्यमुक्तं भवति |

So indra etc are not Ishvara as indra, but in the kAraNa svarUpa of indrAdi devatA-s. As indrAdi they are jIva-s only.

 However there is no tAratamyatA among various forms of Ishvara. The devI being worshipped during navarAtrI is equal to Shiva being worshipped during shivarAtri who is equal to the Rama being worshipped during rAmanavamI - both are forms of Ishvara only, but a particular name and form of the Ishvara is being worshipped there, for ease of worship.


>     The upasiddhAnta that I can draw from this is ( I may be wrong here) Ishwara’s form or vyAkruta rUpa is restricted to some specified celebrities in celestial abode like devi, rAma, Krishna, shiva etc. but not IndrAdi devata.  If that is the case this difference between indrAdi devata (ultimately jeeva-s) and other main deva-devata  not something related to upAdhi but something else!!??  Or am I missing something here??  Please clarify.

It is definitely possible to worship indrAdi devatAs in their kAraNa svarUpa as Ishvara (where the shruti enjoins so), and in doing that, such an upAsana is not indra upAsana - it is Ishvara upAsana only. That is why when we are worshipping devI, rAma, Krishna, shiva, while we are worshipping the names and forms, we are not worshipping them as names and forms, but as names and forms of Ishvara.

The shAstra is giving us these names and forms as "tools" to be able to conceptualise that which is beyond conceptualisation. Which form of Ishvara is to be worshipped and how that form is to be worshipped is not something that we can take up independently - it has to be something that is enjoined in the shAstra-s. There will be differences in the manner of worship for each name and form - because the shAstra-s gives us those differences.

So the siddhAnta is not that only some forms are Ishvara and others are not (because Ishvara is sarvAtmakah), but rather, what the shAstra says that one should accept as a form of Ishvara fit to be worshipped, is to be worshipped as Ishvara, not as a name and form.


Regards,
Venkatraghavan
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