[Advaita-l] [advaitin] rAma-krishna-shiva-durga etc. are not same in shAstric vyavahAra!!!

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Venkat Ji,

Would it not be ok to understand forms Iswara takes, Rama/Krishna/Devi
etc,  is without upAdhIs (other than His own upadhi, mAyA), **  mAyAmaya
sharIra (मायामयं रूपम् in the vAkya) **, while the other devatas etc are
Iswara with upAdhIs which are creations of mAyA ?

Regards

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 3:07 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Bhaskar ji,
>
> The answer to your question can be found in the bhAshya
> sentence स्यात्परमेश्वरस्यापीच्छावशान्मायामयं रूपं साधकानुग्रहार्थम्.
>
> The difference in the upAdhi-s in the case of jIva-s like indrAdi devatA-s
> and Ishvara avatAra-s is as follows:
>
> 1) Cause: the sharIra-s (upAdhi) that jIva-s such as indrAdi-s have is
> because of karma phala, a result of their karma-s, whereas in the case of
> Ishvara avatAra-s such as Rama Krishna, Devi etc the form they take is
> merely a result of Ishvara sankalpa (इच्छावशात् in the bhAShya vAkya), not
> due to Ishvara's karma phala - Ishvara has no karma, and no karma phala.
>
> 2) Nature: the nature of the upAdhi-s in the case of jIva svarUpa-s is
> sthUla/sUkshma sharIrarUpa whereas in the case of Ishvara avatAra-s it is
> mAyAmaya sharIra (मायामयं रूपम् in the vAkya). That is why it is possible
> for Ishvara to take the form of Narasimha simply inside the pillar in an
> instant - the moment Prahlada says that He is present there.
>
> 3) The purpose: the birth of jIva-s as Indra etc is to exhaust the karma
> phala through experience, whereas the bodies taken by Ishvara avatAra-s is
> for the purpose of blessing the sAdhaka / loka kalyANa (साधकानुग्रहार्थम्
> in the vAkya).
>
> Regards,
> Venkatraghavan
>
>
> On Tue, 7 Feb 2023, 09:08 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin, <
> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> praNAms Sri Venkataraghavan prabhuji
>>
>> Hare Krishna
>>
>>
>>
>> I am still not clear about categorizing some devata’s upAdhi as jeeva
>> upAdhi and some main deities upAdhi as Ishwara upAdhi.  My contention is
>> very simple and clear, as per Advaita Chaitanya is one which is birthless,
>> deathless but still appears in nAnA rUpa (ajAyamAno bahudA vijAyate), in
>> that case how can we differentiate some upAdhi sahita chaitanya as devata
>> gaNa (mere tiny jeeva) and some upAdhi sahita Chaitanya as omni potent,
>> omni scient sarveshwara like rAma krishna.or vishNu-shiva!!??  If we ignore
>> the upAdhi what remains is kevala Chaitanya is it not??  And here the main
>> question is, in shAstra vyavahAra whether the names and forms (upAdhi-s)
>> prescribed by shAstra-s to do upAsana are different or not??  shAstra and
>> bhAshya say yes it is different and result of upAsana of these different
>> devata-s are also different.  Under these circumstances though upAdhi-s in
>> its kAraNa swarUpa is ekam eva adviteeyam and we doing the upAsana not to
>> mere names and forms but Chaitanya  the ‘chaitanya’ in its personification
>> form sOpAdhika rUpa is different only and that difference is equally
>> applicable to main deities like shivAdi gods and indrAdi devata-s and
>> sakala sthAvara jaNgama-s.  In this scenario the upAdhi of shiva is
>> entirely different from vishNu, devi’s upAdhi entirely different from that
>> of vinAyaka, rudra gaNa, shaNmukha or sUrya.  And this bheda vyavahAra is
>> obvious in shAstra / vaidika vyavahAra where there is jnAtru, jneya, jnana
>> triputi hold sway.  And ultimately, from the paramArtha view point what is
>> there is kevala nirupAdhika Chaitanya and there is no jeeva, nor deva gaNa
>> and nor Ishwara.  As long as we don’t realize this what is the problem in
>> accepting bheda among different deva-devata-s and what is the problem in
>> expecting different fruits (phala) from doing upAsana to different
>> devata-s??  IMO, doing the upAsana to particular form (ishta devata)
>> keeping it separate from other forms of deities is not the problem but
>> problem starts only when we start screaming “my daddy is strongest” and
>> other should surrender to him or inferior to him.  This hierarchical
>> treatment is dangerous and leads to fanaticism.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> *Bhaskar YR*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* advaitin at googlegroups.com <advaitin at googlegroups.com> *On Behalf
>> Of *Venkatraghavan S
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 5:47 PM
>> *To:* advaitin at googlegroups.com
>> *Cc:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [advaitin] rAma-krishna-shiva-durga etc. are not same in
>> shAstric vyavahAra!!!
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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>> Namaste Bhaskar ji,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 11:45 AM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <
>> advaitin at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> praNAms Sri Venkataraghavan prabhuji
>>
>> Hare Krishna
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you. Yes there is tAratamyatA among the deva-s - ie agni, indra,
>> all the way up to hiraNyagarbha - because they are all ultimately jIva-s.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ø     Ultimately jeeva-s!!??  kindly elaborate.  The Rigveda mantra ekaM
>> sat viprA bahudA vadanti continues to say that : agni, yamaM
>> mAtarishwAnamAhuH, those who have been addressed as : indra, mitra, varuNa,
>> agni etc. behind all these there is only one reality.  So, I think your
>> statement :  *ultimately* jeeva-s needs bit elaboration.
>>
>> That these devatA-s are all jIva-s are known from several places from the
>> shruti and the bhAShya  - hiraNyagarbha is called prathamajah (first born)
>> in many places. The ekam sat viprA bahudhA vadanti calls these devatA-s as
>> sat, not in their devatAsvarUpa, but in their kAraNa svarUpa as Brahman. So
>> SAyaNAchArya in his bhAShya for this rig mantra says : कथं एकस्य
>> नानात्वमुच्यते - अमुमेवादित्यम् एकं एव वस्तुतः सन्तं विप्राः मेधाविनः
>> देवतातत्त्वविदः बहुधा वदन्ति | तत्तत्कार्यकारणेन इन्द्राद्यात्मानं वदन्ति
>> ...सूर्यस्य ब्रह्मणोऽनन्यत्वेन सार्वात्म्यमुक्तं भवति |
>>
>>
>>
>> So indra etc are not Ishvara as indra, but in the kAraNa svarUpa of
>> indrAdi devatA-s. As indrAdi they are jIva-s only.
>>
>>
>>
>>  However there is no tAratamyatA among various forms of Ishvara. The devI
>> being worshipped during navarAtrI is equal to Shiva being worshipped during
>> shivarAtri who is equal to the Rama being worshipped during rAmanavamI -
>> both are forms of Ishvara only, but a particular name and form of the
>> Ishvara is being worshipped there, for ease of worship.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ø     The upasiddhAnta that I can draw from this is ( I may be wrong
>> here) Ishwara’s form or vyAkruta rUpa is restricted to some specified
>> celebrities in celestial abode like devi, rAma, Krishna, shiva etc. but not
>> IndrAdi devata.  If that is the case this difference between indrAdi devata
>> (ultimately jeeva-s) and other main deva-devata  not something related to
>> upAdhi but something else!!??  Or am I missing something here??  Please
>> clarify.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is definitely possible to worship indrAdi devatAs in their kAraNa
>> svarUpa as Ishvara (where the shruti enjoins so), and in doing that, such
>> an upAsana is not indra upAsana - it is Ishvara upAsana only. That is why
>> when we are worshipping devI, rAma, Krishna, shiva, while we are
>> worshipping the names and forms, we are not worshipping them as names and
>> forms, but as names and forms *of *Ishvara.
>>
>>
>>
>> The shAstra is giving us these names and forms as "tools" to be able to
>> conceptualise that which is beyond conceptualisation. Which form of Ishvara
>> is to be worshipped and how that form is to be worshipped is not something
>> that we can take up independently - it has to be something that is enjoined
>> in the shAstra-s. There will be differences in the manner of worship for
>> each name and form - because the shAstra-s gives us those differences.
>>
>>
>>
>> So the siddhAnta is *not* that only some forms *are* Ishvara and others
>> are not (because Ishvara is sarvAtmakah), but rather, *what* the shAstra
>> says that one should accept as a form of Ishvara fit to be worshipped, is
>> to be worshipped *as* Ishvara, not *as a name and form*.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Venkatraghavan
>>
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