[Advaita-l] Re: moksha (Badisa)
badisa66 at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 21 08:00:04 CDT 2005
The above statements are thoroughly false. The GYAnI is free of
ALL KARMA, not just of one kind
Badisa: Please look Brahmasutra, 4.1.13 (Tadadhigama
. Tadvyapadesat). Sri Shankara bhasyam says that, On the attainment of this (that is, knowledge of Brahman), the non-clinging and the destruction of later (future actions) and earlier sins (sanchita karmas) as per the scriptures
In other words, sri Shankara says that knowledge of Brahman frees one from all past and future sins, but not the present ones (that is prarabdha karma, PK). Here, sri Shankara did not say the existence of PK from phenomenal point of view.
In light of this sutra how can you claim that I am wrong? This sutra utterly contradicts with your above statement.
Ch. Up 4.14.3 says that no actions will bind to the knower of Brahman. That means no agama karmas will bind to gyani. This is what sri Shankara says non-clinging for future sins in the above sutra. This is what I have also mentioned in my previous posting.
Brahmasutra, 4.1.15 says that, works which have not begun to yield results are alone destroyed by knowledge and not those which have already begun to bear fruits
It means that only the sanchita karma, whose works are not yet begun to bear the fruits are made zero by the dawn of gyan. It does not convey the meaning that prarabdha karma is also destroyed. Thus, this sutra very clearly indicates the existence of PK and needs to be worked out by facing it by gyani.
This sutra also utterly contradicts with your above statement.
If dawn of knowledge will destroy all three types of karmas, as you have assumed, then in that case, this sutra should not say that the gyani had to work out the karma which has not begun to bear fruits. But as sutra says differently than your understanding, it means that it is a clear proof that for a gyani, prarabdha karma still exists. This sutra does not convey the existence of PK for gyani from phenomenal point of view.
The sruti text, based on this sutra, says that, for him there is delay
Ch. Up 6.14.2. If dawn of gyan will destroy all three types of karma, as you have understood, then, in that case, in the absence of any karma, why should there be any delay at all for a gyani for salvation? Right? But, the above sruti clearly says the existence of some delay for a gyani due to remaining of karma. Therefore, the conclusion is that for a gyani, only one type of karma (sanchita) is destroyed upon the dawn of gyan, but not the PK. Due to dawn of gyan, no agama karmas will cling to him, as per the above sutra. So, out of three types of karmas, two are taken care of, but the third one, Pk, needs to be worked out by facing it. Worked out by facing indicates the existence of PK, which is not destroyed by dawn of gyan. Sri Shankara also says that the gyani has some delay. In his bhasyam for this particular quote, sri Shankara says that (trans. By Swami Gambhirananda) as follows:
How long is the delay? This being answered: Yavat, as long as; vimoksye, he does not become freed. From the force of the context it follows that vimoksye stands for vimoksate by change of person. The meaning is that the delay is for that long till the body falls, after the enjoyment of fruits of actions due to which it is born. Atha, then, at that very time; sampatsye, he becomes merged in Existence. As before, the word sampatsye will have to be transformed into sampatsyate (as in the case of vimoksate). Surely there is no difference of time between freedom from the body and identification with Existence.
>From the above explanation, it is very clear that a gyani is not free from PK and thus have some delay in order to become one with Existence (absolute divine). There is no mention here from phenomenal point of view.
Thus the sri Shankara bhasyam for this sruti text also proves that your above claim is utterly wrong.
By saying that my statements are thoroughly false, I am regretting to say that you are unfortunately indicating that you are not aware of the important references quoted above or at least not concerned to quote them or hiding them in order to high light your point of view. IMHO, this is not good.
Now, to the question,
What about the karmaphalas earned in this life upto the point of realisation. Does these also get burned up in the Gyan agni as aprt of sanceti
the answer, based on the above references, is Yes. Because the earning of present actions, under normal conditions, is added continuously to the vast reservoir of sanchita karma, which is not yet started showing its results. But in case of a gyani, no more is added upon the dawn of gyanam. As whatever karma was added before dawn of gyan, comes under sanchita karma, it is also destroyed upon the dawn of gyan. This is the karma what Lord sri Krishna in Gita 4/37 says destroyed by the dawn of gyan, based on sruti declaration. If gyna agni sarva karmani
is understood as destroying all types of karma upon dawn of gyan, as you have understood, then this Gita sloka is seen as contradicting with Brahmasutra 4.1.15, which is impossible, as sri Lord Krishna himself acknowledged the importance of Brahmasutras in Gita at 13/5. Therefore, the conclusion is that not all types of karmas are destroyed for a gyani.
Sri Shankara, in his Gita bhasyam (trans. by sri Alldi Mahadeva Sastry), for this Gita sloka says that, But the actions by which this body has been brought into existence will come to an end only when their effects will have been fully worked out; for those actions have already commenced their effects. Thus wisdom can destroy only such actions as have not yet begun to produce their effects, whether they are actions done in this birth, or those done in the many previous births.
It is very clear from sri Shankaras commentary that a gyani is not free from all types of karma, but bound to face the PK. This cannot be taken as said from phenomenal point of view.
Now, in light of above sri Shankaras comments, analyze the quote from Mundaka Up. 2.2.9 ("xIyante cha-asya karmANi" or all actions are destroyed), and figure out what this sruti text conveys, again as per sri Shankara bhasyam.
As per his bhasyam on this verse, sri Shankar says (trans. by Swami Gambhirananda), that, karmani, the actions that preceded the rise of knowledge but had not yielded results in earlier lives, as also those actions that accompany the rise of knowledge; ksiyante, get dissipated; but not so the actions that produced the present life, since they have already begun to bear their fruits
This is another clear cut proof from sri Shankara bhasyams that a gyani still faces PK, and it clearly does not convey your opinion that if prArabdha were to remain (among sa.ncita, Agami and prArabdha) even after enlightenment, then the upanishhad would not have used the plural "karmANi", it should have used the dual, namely karme!
None of above Sri Shankara bhasyams or various sruti texts, including the one you quoted, convey your understanding please.
Now, I have provided the clear proof from Brahmasutra of sri Shankara bhasyam and also from sruti texts to show the existence of prarabdha karma for a gyani. If dawn of knowledge puts all types of karma to zero, then in that case, the physical body of a gyani should die immediately soon after dawn of knowledge. Why? Because, in the absence of karma, there is no reason for the physical body to exist. But it wont not happen that way until the PK becomes zero. It means that for a gyani, a physical body is present, PK also exists, and some degree of body consciousness also exists, which is evidenced by the fact that he also eats, does work, and sleeps etc. If gyani does not have body consciousness, then these activities cannot be performed. Due to presence of these, the sruti text, Ch. Up.6.14.2 says that there is some delay for a gyani. Delay for what? Delay for attaining absolute salvation. In this regard, if the sruti texts talk in reference to (ignorant peoples point of view or)
phenomenal existence about the presence of PK, or body etc for a gyani, then in that case, the same sruti texts should also declare from granis point of view in absolute sense about attainment of absolute salvation soon after dawn of gyan. But Ch. 6.14.2 declares the delay for a gyani, indicating that the state of a gyani is not absolute salvation. Since, from phenomenal existence (or an ignorant persons) point of view, it does not matter if there is any delay present for a gyani for salvation or not, the above sruti text needs to be understood as saying with reference to a gyani only in absolute sense. When the sruti is identifying the gyani with existence of a physical body facing the PK, then how can you say that a gyani does not have PK? And how can you understand the sruti quotes from an ignorant persons point of view or phenomenal existence point of view? This is totally not acceptable please.
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