Can iishvara pull out a jiiva from bondage?

Jaldhar H. Vyas jaldhar at BRAINCELLS.COM
Tue Mar 28 21:58:22 CST 2000

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Charles Wikner wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at BRAINCELLS.COM> wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, jkcowart at wrote:
> >
> > > Indeed, as for particular scriptures, Krishnamurti said: "Truth is a
> > > trackless land."
> >
> > So why should we believe Krishnamurti :-)  Those who reject scriptures
> > inevitably end up creating their own.
> John did acknowledge the author of the quote - a habit to be
> encouraged! - but you dismiss it solely on account of that author.
> This is just vitaNDa.

As matter of fact I do reject Krishnamurti but in this case it is the
substance of of what he said I'm responding to.  If one really believes
that truth is unknowable, then nothing anyone says about the truth is
valid including the idea that truth is unknowable.

But this doesn't work.  There was a medieval Indian saint called Kabir who
quite caustically attacked both Hindus and Muslims for their pomp and
hierarchy.  300 tears later guess what?  There is a Kabir panth with
priests and scriptures, and temples.

>       Just as the footprints of birds cannot be traced in space,
>       and of aquatics in water, similar is the movement of the
>       man of knowledge.  [Mbh. ShA. 239.24]
>       Those who want to go beyond the courses of the world,
>       do not tread any path.  [itihAsa upaniSad 18]
> ShrI ShankarAcArya saw fit to quote these two passages in his
> commentary to Mu. Up. 3.2.6 (Gambhirananda's translation given).

But the key is it is the man of knowledge or Jnani who is being talked
about here.  A Ramana or Ramakrishna may have been quite justified in
saying what they did from their perspective but that doesn't mean the same
perspective applies to us.  Strictly speaking, only the paramhamsa is a
real Advaitin.  All the rest of us are mere hangers-on.  Hopefully we are
taking steps to prepare for becoming Advaitins but we shouldn't confuse
the journey for the destination.

> A biblical quote that comes to mind to match the smRti text is:
>       The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the
>       sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and
>       whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit.
>       [Gospel according to John 3:8]

The upshot of passages like this if applied to the non-jnani is that jnana
is essentially a random occurrence that just "happens".  Such a view can
only encourage passivity and hopelessness.  As I mentioned previously, the
various darshanas that developed in India do not take such a fatalistic

> I am not taking sides; just concerned about the level of discourse.

This is the kind of subject that has the potential to offend people.  I
think the truth is more important than someones feelings but I'll try not
to gratuitously offend anyone and I appreciate being told if I am doing

Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at>

bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam

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