[Advaita-l] Fwd: [advaitin] Re: Is there a real jagat?

[V Subrahmanian]

On Fri, Oct 3, 2025 at 6:17 AM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

>
>
> Dear Subbuji
> Thank you for the detailed reply
> What I meant was that by invoking the anAditvaM of the bhrama, even those
> who hold the body to be real do not have to answer when or how the first
> dehAtma bhrama occurred.
>
> Thus, they can hold the body to be real (created by Ishvara based on past
> karma) and yet dehAtma-bhAva to be a continuation of bhrama due to past
> saMskAra.
>
> I seem to be missing something in what is the weakness in holding the body
> to be real but dehAtma-bhAva to be anAdi bhrama in these dualistic schools.
>

Namaste Raghav ji,

Those who accept the body adhyasa on the part of the jiva should answer the
question:  if the jiva has mistaken the body to be the self, this cannot
happen unless he has seen a real body before such mistaking. One might say
this objection is absurd.  This is the same absurdity in asking the
advaitin: has the jiva seen a real world before mistaking Brahman to be the
world?

Actually the acceptance of anāditva of samsāra prevents all such absurd
questions. If samsara is due to the fundamental error of taking the body to
be the Self (or the Self to be the body), such samsara has to be deemed
unreal, by default. Holding samsara and the world that enables samsara to
be real will not absolve them of the question posed above. Anādi bhrama and
anādi samsara is admitted by all. For example in the Mandukya Upanishad

अनादिमायया सुप्तो यदा जीवः प्रबुद्ध्यते ।

अजमनिद्रमस्वप्नमद्वैतं बुद्ध्यते तदा ॥ ८ ॥  (This is Gaudapada karika for
Advaita)


When the jiva wakes up from the delusion caused by anādi māyā he is freed
from samsara.

Madhwa says:

अनादिमायया विष्णोरिच्छया स्वापितो यदा ।


तया प्रबोधमायाति तदा विष्णुं प्रपश्यति ॥


इति प्रकाशिकायाम् ॥


anādi māyā = Vishnu's will.  The jiva is put into sleep by this Will of
Vishnu. The awakening also happens by the same Vishnu's will. Then the jiva
realizes Vishnu.


Advaitins also hold that the samsara sleep is due to maya, which is the
Ishwara shakti specified by Krishna in BG 7th chapter as 'daivI guṇamayī My
māya:


दैवी ह्येषा गुणमयी मम माया दुरत्यया । मामेव ये प्रपद्यन्ते मायामेतां तरन्ति
ते ॥ १४ ॥ 7.14


One can easily see that there is absolutely no scope for the non-Advaitin
to ask that question.

Hope this clarifies.

warm regards
subbu








>
> Om
> Raghav
>
>
> On Thu, 2 Oct 2025 at 11:55 PM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 5:29 PM <raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Namaste Subbuji
> >> Wouldn’t both viśiṣṭādvaita as well as advaita agree on the anāditvaṁ of
> >> dehātma-bhrama implying both schools look at pūrva-bhrama saṁskāra
> causing
> >> subsequent janma with its attendant dehātma bhāva?
> >>
> >
> > Dear Raghav ji,
> >
> > I think since all schools accept anaditva of samsara, the body adhyasa
> > also must be admitted to be anādi. And the bhrama samskara perpetuates
> the
> > samsara.
> >
> >>
> >> The only difference being the satyatva of the body and mithyātva of the
> >> body?
> >>
> >
> > Yes, while Advaita would hold the body is mithya (we have a
> > classification: mukhyātma = Sākshi, mithyātma = body mind complex and
> > gaunātma = the identification with mine - persons, property, etc. outside
> > one's body.  Shankara has specified the last two in the Sundara Pandya
> > verses he has cited at the end of the Tat tu samanvayāt bhashya.
> > *गौणमिथ्या**त्मनो*ऽसत्त्वे पुत्रदेहादिबाधनात् । सद्ब्रह्मात्माहमित्येवं
> > बोधे कार्यं कथं भवेत् ॥  the other schools would not hold the body mithya
> > as that would lead to holding the entire world mithya. But the Gita 13th
> > ch. is clear:  the body mind organs complex and the outside world are all
> > kshetram and as per Shankara bhashya, the last verse of that chapter
> says:
> > the kshetram is mithya.
> >
> > warm regards
> > subbu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Om
> >> Raghav
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >> <
> https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_&af_ios_store_cpp=9d3a686e-218d-4849-8298-b480188dc8ac&af_android_url=https%3A%2F%2Fplay.google.com%2Fstore%2Fapps%2Fdetails%3Fid%3Dcom.yahoo.mobile.client.android.mail%26listing%3Demail_signature
> >
> >>
> >> On Thursday, October 2, 2025, 3:54 PM, V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
> >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 12:19 PM Kalyan Chakravarthy <
> >> kalyanchakravarthy2021 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Namaste Sri Subbuji
> >> >
> >> > I have fundamentally no problem with any of the Bhagavata purana
> quotes
> >> > you gave.
> >> >
> >> > However, your methodology of trying to counter a purely logical
> question
> >> > from dvaitins/vishishta-advaitins using scripture, is incorrect,
> because
> >> > the other parties are sure to have their own explanations of such
> >> > scriptural passages.
> >> >
> >> > Meaning, I am saying that a logical question must be countered purely
> >> > logically, not by resorting to scripture.
> >> >
> >> > Even if you disagree with what I say, please note that at least I am
> >> > looking for a logic based answer to this question.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Dear Kalyan ji,
> >>
> >> It is solely with the difficulty they face to give a logical answer to
> >> that
> >> do the non-Advaitins have devised a different way of explaining those
> >> verses. I have already asked the counter question:  What about the Atma
> >> adhyasa in the body-mind complex or the reverse? Should one not have
> seen
> >> a
> >> real body mind complex before he superimposed the same on the Atman?  If
> >> they find a reply to that, then they would not pose that question to the
> >> Advaitin.
> >>
> >> The Advaitins have already provided the answer:  Adhyasa requires only
> >> samskara and a samskara can be generated even from an unreal thing.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Best Regards
> >> > Kalyan
> >> >
> >> > On Thursday, 2 October 2025 at 11:40:21 am UTC+5:30 v.subrahmanian
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> The Bhagavatam gives the rope-snake and garland-snake analogies for
> the
> >> >> world:
> >> >>
> >> >> आत्मानमेव आत्मतया अविजानतां
> >> >> तेनैव जातं निखिलं प्रपञ्चितम् ।
> >> >> ज्ञानेन भूयोऽपि च तत्प्रलीयते
> >> >> रज्ज्वामहेर्भोगभवाभवौ यथा ।। 10.14.25
> >> >>
> >> >> A person who mistakes a rope for a snake becomes fearful, but he then
> >> >> gives up his fear upon realizing that the so-called snake does not
> >> exist.
> >> >> Similarly, for those who fail to recognize You as the Supreme Soul of
> >> all
> >> >> souls, the expansive illusory material existence arises, but
> knowledge
> >> of
> >> >> You at once causes it to subside.
> >> >>
> >> >> यस्मिन्निदं सदसदात्मतया विभाति
> >> >> माया विवेकविधुति स्रजि वाहिबुद्धिः ।
> >> >> तं नित्यमुक्तपरिशुद्धविशुद्धतत्त्वं
> >> >> प्रत्यूढकर्मकलिलप्रकृतिं प्रपद्ये ॥३८॥ Bhagavatam 4/22/38
> >> >>
> >> >> The creation is appearing in Brahman due to maya, just as one would
> >> take
> >> >> a rope for a snake. The true nature of Brahman can be known by
> viveka.
> >> >> Obeisance to that Brahman that is nitya mukta shuddha and free from
> the
> >> >> blemish of karma.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thus Veda Vyasa has used the rope-snake analogy for the
> >> world-appearance
> >> >> in Brahman.  It is not just the Advaitins that use the analogy.
> >> >>
> >> >> warm regards
> >> >> subbu
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 9:37 AM Kalyan Chakravarthy <
> >> >> kalyanchakr... at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Namaste Sri Vikramji
> >> >>>
> >> >>> In this case, how does this answer the original question?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Lets recap a bit. I am dropping off English and using some Sanskrit
> >> >>> terms.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Opponent is claiming that - Mithya snake can be superimposed on a
> >> Satya
> >> >>> Rope only if there is an experience of a Satya snake beforehand.
> (Any
> >> >>> complicated examples one can think of would still always involve a
> >> Satya
> >> >>> entity.)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Best Regards
> >> >>> Kalyan
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Thursday, 2 October 2025 at 7:43:22 am UTC+5:30 Vikram
> Jagannathan
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Namaskaram Kalyan ji,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> << it appears to me that Sri Shankara rejects beginningless series
> of
> >> >>>> mental impressions (without corresponding ontological entities like
> >> >>>> objects). I think your response proposes beginningless series of
> >> mental
> >> >>>> impressions.  >>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Yes, Bhagavan Bhashyakara rejects beginningless series of mental
> >> >>>> impressions without corresponding ontological entities like
> objects.
> >> >>>> However, my response (which I believe to be Advaita response) is
> >> >>>> beginningless series of impressions (karma / vasanas) *but
> includes*
> >> >>>> the corresponding ontological entities (categorized as mithya).
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Without the ontological reality of the objects, the mental
> >> impressions
> >> >>>> become baseless & illogical, which is the criticism against
> >> Buddhists;
> >> >>>> however with the ontological reality of the objects there is no
> more
> >> any
> >> >>>> logical flaw.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> prostrations,
> >> >>>> Vikram
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 7:01 PM Kalyan Chakravarthy <
> >> >>>> kalyanchakr... at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Namaste Sri Vikramji
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> >There is a subtle, and very pertinent, difference between
> Bhagavan
> >> >>>>> Bhashyakara's argument against the Buddhists and Advaita's
> response
> >> to your
> >> >>>>> question.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> I hope you will pardon me if I call it "your response" and not
> >> >>>>> "advaita's response",  at least until I know that this is the
> >> position
> >> >>>>> adopted by traditional teachers of advaita.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Secondly, Please note, I am not in anyway suggesting similarities
> >> here
> >> >>>>> between Buddhism and Advaita.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Having clarified the above -Whether it is your response or the
> >> >>>>> Buddhist position, it appears to me that Sri Shankara rejects
> >> beginningless
> >> >>>>> series of mental impressions (without corresponding ontological
> >> entities
> >> >>>>> like objects). I think your response proposes beginningless series
> >> of
> >> >>>>> mental impressions.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Best Regards
> >> >>>>> Kalyan
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>
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> >> >>>
> >>
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> >> >>>
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