[Advaita-l] Fwd: [advaitin] Re: Is there a real jagat?

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <raghavkumar00 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 at 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: Is there a real jagat?
To: V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>


Dear Subbuji
Thank you for the detailed reply
What I meant was that by invoking the anAditvaM of the bhrama, even those
who hold the body to be real do not have to answer when or how the first
dehAtma bhrama occurred.

Thus, they can hold the body to be real (created by Ishvara based on past
karma) and yet dehAtma-bhAva to be a continuation of bhrama due to past
saMskAra.

I seem to be missing something in what is the weakness in holding the body
to be real but dehAtma-bhAva to be anAdi bhrama in these dualistic schools.

Om
Raghav


On Thu, 2 Oct 2025 at 11:55 PM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 5:29 PM <raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Subbuji
>> Wouldn’t both viśiṣṭādvaita as well as advaita agree on the anāditvaṁ of
>> dehātma-bhrama implying both schools look at pūrva-bhrama saṁskāra causing
>> subsequent janma with its attendant dehātma bhāva?
>>
>
> Dear Raghav ji,
>
> I think since all schools accept anaditva of samsara, the body adhyasa
> also must be admitted to be anādi. And the bhrama samskara perpetuates the
> samsara.
>
>>
>> The only difference being the satyatva of the body and mithyātva of the
>> body?
>>
>
> Yes, while Advaita would hold the body is mithya (we have a
> classification: mukhyātma = Sākshi, mithyātma = body mind complex and
> gaunātma = the identification with mine - persons, property, etc. outside
> one's body.  Shankara has specified the last two in the Sundara Pandya
> verses he has cited at the end of the Tat tu samanvayāt bhashya.
> *गौणमिथ्या**त्मनो*ऽसत्त्वे पुत्रदेहादिबाधनात् । सद्ब्रह्मात्माहमित्येवं
> बोधे कार्यं कथं भवेत् ॥  the other schools would not hold the body mithya
> as that would lead to holding the entire world mithya. But the Gita 13th
> ch. is clear:  the body mind organs complex and the outside world are all
> kshetram and as per Shankara bhashya, the last verse of that chapter says:
> the kshetram is mithya.
>
> warm regards
> subbu
>
>
>
>
>
>> Om
>> Raghav
>>
>>
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>>
>> On Thursday, October 2, 2025, 3:54 PM, V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 12:19 PM Kalyan Chakravarthy <
>> kalyanchakravarthy2021 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Namaste Sri Subbuji
>> >
>> > I have fundamentally no problem with any of the Bhagavata purana quotes
>> > you gave.
>> >
>> > However, your methodology of trying to counter a purely logical question
>> > from dvaitins/vishishta-advaitins using scripture, is incorrect, because
>> > the other parties are sure to have their own explanations of such
>> > scriptural passages.
>> >
>> > Meaning, I am saying that a logical question must be countered purely
>> > logically, not by resorting to scripture.
>> >
>> > Even if you disagree with what I say, please note that at least I am
>> > looking for a logic based answer to this question.
>> >
>>
>> Dear Kalyan ji,
>>
>> It is solely with the difficulty they face to give a logical answer to
>> that
>> do the non-Advaitins have devised a different way of explaining those
>> verses. I have already asked the counter question:  What about the Atma
>> adhyasa in the body-mind complex or the reverse? Should one not have seen
>> a
>> real body mind complex before he superimposed the same on the Atman?  If
>> they find a reply to that, then they would not pose that question to the
>> Advaitin.
>>
>> The Advaitins have already provided the answer:  Adhyasa requires only
>> samskara and a samskara can be generated even from an unreal thing.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Best Regards
>> > Kalyan
>> >
>> > On Thursday, 2 October 2025 at 11:40:21 am UTC+5:30 v.subrahmanian
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> The Bhagavatam gives the rope-snake and garland-snake analogies for the
>> >> world:
>> >>
>> >> आत्मानमेव आत्मतया अविजानतां
>> >> तेनैव जातं निखिलं प्रपञ्चितम् ।
>> >> ज्ञानेन भूयोऽपि च तत्प्रलीयते
>> >> रज्ज्वामहेर्भोगभवाभवौ यथा ।। 10.14.25
>> >>
>> >> A person who mistakes a rope for a snake becomes fearful, but he then
>> >> gives up his fear upon realizing that the so-called snake does not
>> exist.
>> >> Similarly, for those who fail to recognize You as the Supreme Soul of
>> all
>> >> souls, the expansive illusory material existence arises, but knowledge
>> of
>> >> You at once causes it to subside.
>> >>
>> >> यस्मिन्निदं सदसदात्मतया विभाति
>> >> माया विवेकविधुति स्रजि वाहिबुद्धिः ।
>> >> तं नित्यमुक्तपरिशुद्धविशुद्धतत्त्वं
>> >> प्रत्यूढकर्मकलिलप्रकृतिं प्रपद्ये ॥३८॥ Bhagavatam 4/22/38
>> >>
>> >> The creation is appearing in Brahman due to maya, just as one would
>> take
>> >> a rope for a snake. The true nature of Brahman can be known by viveka.
>> >> Obeisance to that Brahman that is nitya mukta shuddha and free from the
>> >> blemish of karma.
>> >>
>> >> Thus Veda Vyasa has used the rope-snake analogy for the
>> world-appearance
>> >> in Brahman.  It is not just the Advaitins that use the analogy.
>> >>
>> >> warm regards
>> >> subbu
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 9:37 AM Kalyan Chakravarthy <
>> >> kalyanchakr... at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Namaste Sri Vikramji
>> >>>
>> >>> In this case, how does this answer the original question?
>> >>>
>> >>> Lets recap a bit. I am dropping off English and using some Sanskrit
>> >>> terms.
>> >>>
>> >>> Opponent is claiming that - Mithya snake can be superimposed on a
>> Satya
>> >>> Rope only if there is an experience of a Satya snake beforehand. (Any
>> >>> complicated examples one can think of would still always involve a
>> Satya
>> >>> entity.)
>> >>>
>> >>> Best Regards
>> >>> Kalyan
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thursday, 2 October 2025 at 7:43:22 am UTC+5:30 Vikram Jagannathan
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Namaskaram Kalyan ji,
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> << it appears to me that Sri Shankara rejects beginningless series of
>> >>>> mental impressions (without corresponding ontological entities like
>> >>>> objects). I think your response proposes beginningless series of
>> mental
>> >>>> impressions.  >>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Yes, Bhagavan Bhashyakara rejects beginningless series of mental
>> >>>> impressions without corresponding ontological entities like objects.
>> >>>> However, my response (which I believe to be Advaita response) is
>> >>>> beginningless series of impressions (karma / vasanas) *but includes*
>> >>>> the corresponding ontological entities (categorized as mithya).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Without the ontological reality of the objects, the mental
>> impressions
>> >>>> become baseless & illogical, which is the criticism against
>> Buddhists;
>> >>>> however with the ontological reality of the objects there is no more
>> any
>> >>>> logical flaw.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> prostrations,
>> >>>> Vikram
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 7:01 PM Kalyan Chakravarthy <
>> >>>> kalyanchakr... at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Namaste Sri Vikramji
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> >There is a subtle, and very pertinent, difference between Bhagavan
>> >>>>> Bhashyakara's argument against the Buddhists and Advaita's response
>> to your
>> >>>>> question.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I hope you will pardon me if I call it "your response" and not
>> >>>>> "advaita's response",  at least until I know that this is the
>> position
>> >>>>> adopted by traditional teachers of advaita.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Secondly, Please note, I am not in anyway suggesting similarities
>> here
>> >>>>> between Buddhism and Advaita.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Having clarified the above -Whether it is your response or the
>> >>>>> Buddhist position, it appears to me that Sri Shankara rejects
>> beginningless
>> >>>>> series of mental impressions (without corresponding ontological
>> entities
>> >>>>> like objects). I think your response proposes beginningless series
>> of
>> >>>>> mental impressions.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Best Regards
>> >>>>> Kalyan
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>
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>> >>>
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