[Advaita-l] Commentary on Ramana's Forty Verses
K Kathirasan
brahmasatyam at gmail.com
Wed Jun 16 23:04:43 EDT 2021
Thank you Akilesh.
Kathirasan K
> On 17 Jun 2021, at 10:23 AM, Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> Namaste Kathirasan,
>
> In BG 18:73, Arjuna says: “Destroyed is delusion, and I have gained
> recognition through thy Grace, O Achyuta. I am firm, with doubts gone. I
> will do Thy word.”
>
> Sankara’s bhashya on this sloka says: “Recognition: of the true nature of
> the Self. When this recognition is obtained, then will all the ties of the
> heart be loosened.—This questioning and answering about the destruction of
> delusion shows conclusively what the purpose of a knowledge of the teaching
> of the whole sastra is, namely, the destruction of delusion and the
> attainment of a recognition of the Self….Arjuna means to say “Through Thy
> Grace I have achieved the end of life; I have naught to do'”
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 10:09 PM K Kathirasan via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Akilesh,
>>
>> How did you come to the conclusion that Arjuna is a jnani? I am curious.
>>
>> Kathirasan K
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 17 Jun 2021, at 10:04 AM, Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Show me where in his written works it is said that one MUST take to
>>> monkhood and give up the householder life. Not once does he say that.
>>>
>>> His talks, as you well know, all contradict that idea, and so do the
>> spirit
>>> of his words.
>>>
>>> The burden is on you to show why he didn’t say it was a must if it is so
>>> important. Why didn’t he say, as Sankara clearly does in his texts to his
>>> Brahmin disciples, “you MUST give up the householder life”?
>>>
>>> If we are taking Ramana’s words “LITERALLY,” and jnanis are “literally”
>>> dead to the world, then, again, why do jnanis eat?
>>>
>>> Again, verbal gymnastics will not save you from an inadequate
>>> understanding. Literalness yields nonsense in nonduality.
>>>
>>> In the BG Krishna clearly says over and over again that non-action is not
>>> the same as the way of monkhood. Arjuna and Janaka are just two examples
>> of
>>> non-monk jnanis.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 6:25 PM Ven Balakrishnan <ventzu at yahoo.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is a source of amusement to see so-many self-proclaimed jnanis
>>>> passionately emphasise that renunciation, utter desirelessness is not a
>>>> concomitant of jnana. I wonder why that could be?
>>>>
>>>> And the verbal acrobatics to justify this position, arguing a phrase
>> here
>>>> is figurative, whereas a phrase there should be taken literally.
>>>>
>>>> Bhagavan in the recorded Talks was talking at the level of the seekers
>>>> that asked him questions. After all, in the BG, Krishna said only very
>> few
>>>> would ever achieve jnana. And there can be some question over whether
>> the
>>>> recorder of the talks was accurate in his note-taking and
>> interpretation.
>>>> So his written works like Ulladu Narpadu and GVK have to be the best
>>>> authority for his teaching.
>>>>
>>>> I suggest you find something in his written work (incl GVK) that would
>>>> support the contention that utter desirelessness / disassociation with
>>>> body-mind is not what is meant by jnana. If he said it "many times”,
>> then
>>>> surely he or Muruganar must have written it down as well. Whereas I can
>>>> find you quite a few written quotes, like your own in this second verse,
>>>> that makes exactly that point; let alone the guidance he gave to some of
>>>> his closest disciples who lived lives of renunciation and austerity
>> around
>>>> him - Muruganar, Annamalai Swami, Chadwick, Sadhu Natananda, Sadhu Om,
>> to
>>>> name but a few. Find a realised disciple in Ramana’s constellation who
>>>> lived the life of a householder.
>>>>
>>>> The argument that Gaudapada / Sankara / the Upanishads were aimed at
>> monks
>>>> is a novel one, as opposed to elucidating what they believed was the
>>>> highest truth to all. Again, it is case of taking some teaching as
>> gospel,
>>>> and others as figurative or a product of their cultural times.
>> Convenient,
>>>> no?
>>>>
>>>> Ramana’s actionlessness and renunciation from the outset - without
>> having
>>>> read any sruti - exemplifies exactly what Sankara described as the
>> life of
>>>> a jivanmukta. As Sw Chinmayananda said of him, ‘he is the cream of the
>>>> upanishads’.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 16 Jun 2021, at 21:11, Akilesh Ayyar <ayyar at akilesh.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 3:09 PM Ven Balakrishnan <ventzu at yahoo.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Four responses:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) I’m just replaying your quote. Do you believe Ramana was
>> exaggerating
>>>>> for effect? What was his intention in writing such a strongly worded
>>>>> phrase - surely not to mislead?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not at all to mislead. It has to be understood, as I put it in my
>>>> commentary: "By dying to what is changing — to what one thought one was,
>>>> but in fact is not — one realizes oneself to actually be the
>> unchanging."
>>>>
>>>> The unchanging has no truck with either doing or not-doing. Those
>>>> categories do not apply.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Recall that Bhagavan when he arrived at Tiruvannamallai, sat
>>>>> indifferent to his body and the insects biting him, let alone
>> requirements
>>>>> for food, for days on end. He had to be force fed.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, yes, and Bhagavan has said many times that his path is not for
>>>> everyone and not required for jnana.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Lakshmana Sarma - who received personal instruction on Ulladu
>> Narpadu
>>>>> from Bhagavan - wrote this in HIS commentary on this verse:
>>>>>
>>>>> “The knowledge born out of personal experience that worldly life is
>>>>> riddled with sorrow turns one through dispassion towards nivritti
>> marga,
>>>>> the path of withdrawal from activity or of renunciation.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nivritti marga agani has to be understood. True renunciation is the
>>>> renunciation of the ego, not of gross physical activity, as both Ramana
>> and
>>>> the Bhagavad Gita have said repeatedly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) Then there is Gaudapada, MK 2.37:
>>>>>
>>>>> “He should have this body and the Atman as his support and depend upon
>>>>> chances, ie he should be satisfied with those things for his physical
>>>>> wants, that chance brings him”
>>>>>
>>>>> Sankara underscores this in his bhasya to this verse
>>>>> “He entirely depends on circumstances, that is to say, he maintains his
>>>>> body with whatever food or strips of cloth, etc are brought to him by
>> mere
>>>>> chance”
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we understand that these are the monastic traditions they worked
>> in.
>>>> But that's because these Upanishads were geared towards monks. This is
>> not
>>>> the requirement for jnana for everyone.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope that clarifies what ‘dead to themselves and their possessions’
>> means.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 16 Jun 2021, at 16:44, Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <
>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If so, why would they eat?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 4:07 AM Ven Balakrishnan <ventzu at yahoo.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “DEAD TO THEMSELVES AND THEIR POSSESSIONS”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ramanamaharishi is entirely consistent with Sankara saying a jnani
>> will
>>>>>>> inevitably take up the life of a paramahamsa ascetic, since s/he has
>> no
>>>>>>> desires, no fear, no attachments, not even to body-mind - like a
>> snake
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> has shed its skin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 15 Jun 2021, at 17:26, Akilesh Ayyar via Advaita-l <
>>>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Namaste,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is the commentary on the next verse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>> https://www.siftingtothetruth.com/blog/2021/6/15/commentary-on-ramanas-forty-verses-invocatory-part-two-of-two
>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> II. THOSE WHO KNOW INTENSE FEAR OF DEATH SEEK REFUGE ONLY AT THE
>> FEET
>>>>> OF
>>>>>>>> THE LORD WHO HAS NEITHER DEATH NOR BIRTH. DEAD TO THEMSELVES AND
>> THEIR
>>>>>>>> POSSESSIONS, CAN THE THOUGHT OF DEATH OCCUR TO THEM AGAIN? DEATHLESS
>>>>> ARE
>>>>>>>> THEY.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Commentary:* All fear is rooted in the fear of death. But death can
>>>>> only
>>>>>>>> afflict what is born, that is, what is changing: that is, what is
>>>>>>> thought.
>>>>>>>> We have just seen that what is Real is unchanging, and that what is
>>>>> Real
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Lord who has neither birth nor death is none other than this
>> very
>>>>>>>> Reality, the Heart. This Lord may go by many other names — Shiva or
>>>>>>> Vishnu
>>>>>>>> or God or the Goddess, for example. But ultimately they all refer to
>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> unchanging Reality.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In order to take refuge at the feet of this Lord, all else must be
>>>>> given
>>>>>>>> up. This giving up is a kind of death. By dying to what is changing
>> —
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> what one thought one was, but in fact is not — one realizes oneself
>> to
>>>>>>>> actually be the unchanging. What seems mortal has in fact never been
>>>>> born
>>>>>>>> to begin with, and what is immortal cannot die. And the thought of
>>>>> death
>>>>>>>> cannot occur to the immortals, which are those who have given up
>> their
>>>>>>>> stake in everything changing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At any time, see all the forty verses posts that I have published so
>>>>> far
>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>> https://www.siftingtothetruth.com/blog/tag/Forty%20Verses%20Commentary
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> Akilesh Ayyar
>>>>>>>> Spiritual guidance - http://www.siftingtothetruth.com/
>>>>>>>> ᐧ
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>>>>>>> ᐧ
>>>>>> ᐧ
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>>>>>
>>>>> ᐧ
>>>> ᐧ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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