[Advaita-l] The 'Snake-and-ladder' game - The Spiritual path

[D.V.N.Sarma డి.వి.ఎన్.శర్మ]

Dear Raghavji,
I have read Purvamimamsa sutras on Sabda pramana. I can state that I am not
impressed.
According to these people all pramanas are swatah pramana. If one pramana
needs another pramana for its validity
anavastha dosha results. Therefore you have to take every pramana to be
valid by its own right. Suppose I say I do not believe your sabda pramana
purvamimamsa peolple say "OK,. but remeber that fire burns you if you touch
it whether you know that it burns or do not know." This is a subtle
blackmail.
An attempt to make us submit by invoking fear in us.

Gita calls these कामात्मानः, स्वर्गपराः, नान्यदस्तीतिनादिनः।

It also says
यावानानर्थ उदपाने सर्वतः संप्लुतोदके
तावान्सर्वेषु वेदेषु ब्राह्मणस्य विजानतः।।
SAstras(upanishads) indicate that there is a state that has to be achieved
that is all.

>I am well aware of the gyAneshvara episode. What is the logical connection
you are trying to establish?
That a jnani is beyond vedas.

>There is no idea of Ishvara in Islam and Christianity .
I think that they have an Ishwara but no Brahman. Sufis in Islam have some
thing equivalent to Aham brhmasmi. In Christianity Gnostics
have something akin to our jnana marga.


regards,
Sarma.


On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 5:26 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <
raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Sarma Garu
> There is a difference between empathizing with any sensible ideas in
> different religious traditions with compassion which is unexceptionable,
> and on the other hand confusion about these matters and I request you to
> avoid confusion in the name of compassion.
>
> I am well aware of the gyAneshvara episode. What is the logical connection
> you are trying to establish? That since the Vedas were chanted by a
> buffalo, they are not apauruSheya? How do you say that?
>
>
> In fact your statement that the Vedic mantras are born of "experiential"
> knowledge is a significant error in thinking - if anything  it's the other
> way round (ignoring for the moment the false binary of cognitive vs.
> experiential). This is a common mistake to assume  that first there is
> knowledge and later  Vedic mantras  were "composed" articulating that
> knowledge  . I request you to carefully look at the idea of vedic shabda
> pramANam being required even for the earliest acharyas.
>
> Please indicate what is sectarian in what I wrote instead of making
> sweeping generalizations.  You may need stop looking at the Vedas through
> preconceptions from physics. For that you may have to step out of the "I am
> a physicist" role and stick to Yukti or reason all right, but without any
> preconceived physics baggage,  in understanding the Veda.
>
> There is no idea of Ishvara in Islam and Christianity . Thats just a plain
> statement of fact. All you have to do is explain what Ishvara means and ask
> any pastor or maulvi if Allah or God or anything similar exists according
> to them and they would regard the idea of Ishvara as blasphemous and
> opposed to the spirit of their texts.  If you don't wish to see this
> elephant in the room, nobody can help.
>
> Many well-meaning but confused Hindus think that the equation of Ishvara
> with Allah or God is acceptable to the followers of the Bible or Quran.
> They would find it sacrilegious.
>
>  It's a different story that as a Hindu, the Advaita tradition endows us
> with the intellectual and hermeneutical tools to empathize with different
> forms of worship and  also choose to re-interpret and recast *any text of
> any religious tradition of the world* in my own peculiar idiosyncratic
> liberal advaitic way based on the 3 gunas etc etc. Thats fine but that's a
> different topic.
>
> Om
>
>
>
>
> On Fri 10 Aug, 2018, 3:24 PM D.V.N.Sarma డి.వి.ఎన్.శర్మ, <
> dvnsarma at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Raghavji.
>> A jnani can make a baffallo recite what you consider as sacred and
>> apaurusheya vedas.
>> When traditionalists started harassing his father, Sant Jnaneswar exactly
>> did that. We hear that, that baffallo
>> continued to recite vedas till it died. Come out of the narrow and
>> sectarian modes of thinking. It neither helps you nor helps others.
>> regards,
>> Sarma.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 2:17 PM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>
>>> You wrote
>>>
>>> This point is already addressed. If buffalo can be treated as Ishwara,
>>> then
>>> so can Allah and Christ.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Nope. The buffalo was treated as Ishvara for a specific Adhikari who
>>> fulfilled the followings conditions, not just everybody. You are totally
>>> ignoring the following
>>> 1. He the student had a pre-existing  great love for the form of the
>>> buffalo
>>> 2. He was under the guidance of an accomplished advaita teacher.
>>> 3. He wanted to overcome his obsession about the Buffalo and instead
>>> wants
>>> to dwell upon nirguNa brahman
>>> 4. The teacher *teaches about  Brahman first* and asks the student to
>>> grow
>>> up and let go of his dualistic obsessions  which the student understands
>>> and accepts but his emotions sometimes are still centred on his past
>>> obsession viz., the buffalo.
>>> 5.Then alone he is asked to meditate that whenever his mind spontaneously
>>> and obsessively thinks of  the Buffalo, then he is asked by the Guru to
>>> direct his attention to the very adhiShtAnam the truth of even that form
>>> of
>>> the Buffalo and thus reject the buffalo form as unreal and successfully
>>> dwell on that nirguNa  Brahman.
>>> In the above five points you can replace the word 'Buffalo' with any
>>> other
>>> form which is creating an obstacle fir the student in dwelling upon
>>> Formless Brahman.
>>>  I am going to end this discussion here. Because your whole argument, i
>>> am
>>> convinced, is because you felt hurt and have taken offence to the article
>>> about the Panchadashi where its written that even the Buffalo is a valid
>>> locus for meditation upon Brahman.
>>>
>>> If you disagree with the Panchadashi or if you claim that the author
>>> Vidyaranya is wrong because according to you he is saying in effect that
>>> (these are your confused words)
>>>  If buffalo can be treated as Ishwara, then so can Allah and Christ.
>>> It shows your misunderstanding of the panchdashI.
>>>
>>> Generally who are very devoted to a particular form of the Lord like
>>> Vishnu, Krishna etc see a red rag in such advaitic ideas.
>>>
>>> Om
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thu 9 Aug, 2018, 11:37 PM Kalyan via Advaita-l, <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> > //The word devata and their worship such as Rama etc.,  is clearly
>>> talked
>>> > of
>>> > in shAstra. If you claim that Allah and Jesus qualify to be called
>>> devatas
>>> > , please show how. The onus is on you to prove Allah and Jesus can be
>>> > called devatas as per the advaitic tradition.//
>>> >
>>> > This point is already addressed. If buffalo can be treated as Ishwara,
>>> > then so can Allah and Christ.
>>> > Here is a link about Sri Ramakrishna, and Christ -
>>> > http://www.spiritualbee.com/posts/sri-ramakrishna-vision-of-jesus/
>>> >
>>> >
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>>