[Advaita-l] Fwd: Question/Clarification on Chanting Vaidika mantras
Raghav Kumar Dwivedula
raghavkumar00 at gmail.com
Tue Nov 14 19:52:57 EST 2017
Namaste Rama ji
You wrote -
"PS: Perhaps you are getting confused by the sUtra uccairudAttaH and
confusing svarita with this."
I have observed even a few teachers of pANinI not being clear about this.
Just to make sure I understand you correctly.
In gAyatrI mantra samhitA pAtha ,
de_ vas ya!
anudAtta udAtta svaritaH
Is this Correct?
I have observed some teachers while explaining the sutra interpret udAttaH
as the higher note and svaritaH as the middle note. (samAhAraH svaritaH) .
nIcairanudAttaH has no ambiguity.
So they would say .the gAyatri word -
de_vasya! is anudAtta-svarita-udAtta which is incorrect?
Is there any commentary or vRtti or prAtishAkhya rule which clears this
popular confusion regarding nomenclature? (I generally use the idea of the
word 'dIrghasvaritaH' to fix svaritaH to be higher pitch, in my mind).
Request you to clarify this basic doubt and any mistakes in the above.
Especially how samAhara is interpreted using the sutra tasyAdita
On 15-Nov-2017 1:06 AM, "Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan via Advaita-l" <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> The reply went to Bhaskar's personal email - so forwarding it.
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan <rama.balasubramanian at gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 1:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Question/Clarification on Chanting Vaidika mantras
> To: Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com>
> Hello Bhaskar,
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:01 AM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:
> *> I quite do not understand your questions at all, sorry. Are you saying
> below that ALL yajur-veda udAtta-s become svarita-s in yajur-veda? I am
> pretty sure this is not the case.>>> No prabhuji, I am not saying all
> udAtta-s in YV become svarita in RV..But most of the popular upayukta
> mantra-s in YV and RV have different svara-s with same wordings.*
> No, they mostly have the same svara-s. However, some svara-s are recited
> differently *relative* to each other, namely R^ig and yajuH. That means
> what syllables are *called* (please note the word **called** and not how
> they are chanted) anudAtta, udAtta and svarita will be the **same** in both
> vedas, however the svarita will generally be recited in a different way
> between the two veda-s. The udAtta and anudAtta are recited pretty much in
> the same manner in both veda-s.
> *>> Does the meaning of the gayatri mantra also have the different meaning
> when we see the pada-pAtha for the above mantra-s?? for example we say
> bhargO with udAtta whereas bhagO will be chanted with svarita in RV gayatri
> mantra. Likewise durga sUkta (jAtavedase too same mantra-s have different
> svara-s) do these mantra-s also have different meaning in pada pAtha??
> Sorry, I have not read veda bhAshya and not familiar with pada pAtha of
> Ud = udAtta (no mark), An = anudAtta ( _ mark), Sv = svarita (! mark).
> dIrgha svarita (!! mark).
> Consider one pada of the gAyatrI split into syllables and the svaras. Here
> there is only udAtta and anudAtta:
> bhar - Ud
> ga.h - An
> de - An
> vas - Ud
> ya - An
> dhI - An
> ma - An
> hi - An
> samhitA pATha in BOTH R^ig and yajus:
> bhargo! de_vasya! dhImahi |
> 1. anudAtta after udAtta becomes svarita
> 2. anudAtta-s after svarita become pracaya till next udAtta
> 3. anudAtta before udAtta stays anudAtta
> Contrary to what you say, the go syllable in bhargo is NOT udAtta, it is
> The yajus chanting is the same as above. However the R^ig chanting is
> different. In the R^ig samhitA pATha (Sringeri style):
> bhargo!! de_vasya! dhImahi |
> In the Tamil style:
> bhargo!! de_vasya! (*) dhimahi |
> The * represents a different type of hrasva-svarita which is used only at
> the end of a vAkya in the Sringeri style.
> The fundamental concept is that after the udAtta, the next syllable, if
> svarita, has to transition back to an anudAtta like sound (called pracaya)
> in general. So, *if* there is a svarita happening after the udAtta, then
> what should happen? This was much discussed in the olden days:
> 1. One concept was that the svarita would be udAtta like in the beginning
> and transition over to anudAtta. Within this there were discussions about
> where the transition would happen, whether the transition is sudden or
> gradual and so on.
> 2. The other concept was that svarita would reach an even higher tone
> before transitioning to a lower tone. Again, there were discussions on
> whether the transition would be sudden, gradual, etc.
> 3. What is the quality of the svarita before samyutAxaras versus a regular
> combination of one vowel and a consonant?
> 4. What is the svarita like in a hrasva versus dIrgha vowels?
> Etc., Etc., Etc.
> You can see detailed analyses in the various prAtishAkhya-s and shikxa-s
> about this. The quality of svarita as expounded by different schools is a
> complicated subject. In any case, the summary of all this is that the
> svarita can be modulated/pronounced differently between veda-s. But the
> udAtta ALWAYS remains the same, that's what fixes the meaning of the word.
> Unless you see the pada-pATha, you cannot be 100% sure about what the
> udAtta is, although it's guessable most of the time. Yajus versus R^ig or
> R^ig "Kanchi" versus R^ig "Mysore" may pronounce the ****svarita****
> differently and that's perfectly ok. This is because they happen to be in
> complete agreement on what the udAtta syllables are. If they are
> pronouncing the udAtta or anudAtta differently, then one of the chanters is
> chanting it wrong :-).
> Hope this helps.
> PS: Perhaps you are getting confused by the sUtra uccairudAttaH and
> confusing svarita with this.
> > If you are thinking of a particular example, please specify the entire
> mantra and where it occurs in Rg and yajur along with svara-s if you cannot
> provide the text references. Wikners transliteration would be good.
> >> I have provided some of the mantra-s above...Infact there are somany
> like this in vivAha, upanayana viniyOga mantra-s and RV and YV mahAnyAsAdi
> mantra-s and udakashanti mantra-s.
> > Furthermore, there is no connection between hrasva and dIrgha and svara-s
> udAtta, etc. The udAtta can be on a hrasva or dIrgha vowel. So can any of
> the other svara-s.
> >> what I was trying to say is when the hrasva akshara has the udAtta with
> visarga at the end of the vAkya, then it will be chanted as if it is
> deerghAkshara in RV. Sri Ananda Hudbli prabhuji may explain this in a
> better way I think.
> > I am also not sure what you mean by Kanchi pATha. Do you mean the Tamil
> method? Tamil Nadu > Kanchi :-).
> >> Yes, kanchi pAtha means Tamil method. Rigveda mantra-s chanting method
> will be entirely different from what we used to here. We call our style as
> Mysore pAtha (like Andhra pAtha, dravida pAtha in KYV) in kanchi pAtha all
> udAtta-s in the RV samHita mantra-s will be chanted differently and we will
> immediately come to know 'this is Kanchi pAtha' if some person started
> chanting mantra-s in this style :-)
> > BTW, in the mantra adaa!"suu.s.tarasya_ veda!.h, the udAtta syllables are
> "a" in the first word and "ve" in the second word. It's not da, whch is
> >> gaNapati sUkta in RV has the vAkya like this : a'dA'shUshtarasya
> ve'daH'...Here first da is deerghAkshara which has the svarita svara and
> last 'da' in the word vedaH has the hrasvaakshara (da not dA) with visarga
> and udAtta svara. But while chanting this vedaH, since last 'da' has the
> udAtta svara we chant daH as dAH as if it sounds like deerghAkshara !!
> whereas this style of chanting we would not follow in YV.
> >> Kindly pardon me if I am not clearly expressing my doubts here.
> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> > bhaskar
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