[Advaita-l] Ishwara Turiya?

Ramesh Krishnamurthy rkmurthy at gmail.com
Mon Mar 12 11:36:31 CDT 2012

On 12 March 2012 16:55, Rajaram Venkataramani <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
<<Some people on this list, who attend traditional diiscourses
regularly, were reluctant to even say that Saguna Brahman is in
Turiya! They said that He is in susupti not differentiating between
Ishwara and Hiranyagarbha! I hope it is their inability to learn and
the tradition is alive. IMO, we should go by what sastras and Sankara
say. Textual evidence is the key.>>

Veiled attack ? :-)

Vidyasankar has on at least 2 occasions pointed out that your
questions are ill-posed. Strictly speaking, the question "is Ishvara
turIya" is an absurd one. But I hope you at least realize that the
question "Is Ishvara IN turIyAvasthA" is different from the question
"is Ishvara turIya".

Even the question "is Ishvara IN turIyAvasthA" can be answered in
multiple ways. One could say that both a human j~nAnI and Ishvara are
"aware" of their nityamukta status (because their true svarUpa is
nirguNa brahman) and in that sense IN turIyAvasthA. Alternatively, one
could say that every entity including aj~nAnI-s are IN turIyAvasthA
because the turIya is the true svarUpa of all entities, including even
Rajaram :-)

In any case, going by the record of your posts on the list, one would
only make a reasonable judgement as to what is it that you are asking,
and I don't think that judgement was off the mark. Sri Subrahmanian
has answered your questions admirably and I am in full agreement with

In his last post to you, he has said exactly what I wrote earlier -
that the 3 regular states have vyaShTi and samaShTi counterparts

Waking: vyaShTi vishva & samaShTi virAT

Dreaming: vyaShTi taijasa & samaShTi hiraNyagarbha

Deep sleep: vyaShTi prAj~na and samaShTi Ishvara

When the upAdhi-s pertaining to the 3 states are negated as mithyA,
what remains is the turIya which is nothing but the Atman ( =
nirupAdhika/nirguNa/nirvisheSha brahman). The turIya is the
nirupAdhika adhiShThAna of the 3 mithyA states.

For the jIva, deep sleep is that state where avidyA alone remains
sakShIvedya without there being any visheSha j~nAna. Likewise, at the
samaShTi level, when the jagat remains unexpressed or unmanifested,
and brahman has the upAdhi of the causal mAyA alone, it is called
Ishvara. Once the causal mAyA is negated, what remains is nirguNa
brahman, which is the adhiShThAna of all the 3 states.

Sri Subrahmanian too has stated exactly what I have written above, and
so did Vidyasankar in his post the other day. Note his point: "The
question that you should really be asking is, why is prAjna in the
sushupta state described as sarveSvara, sarvajna, yoni and bhUtAnAM
prabhavApyayau". It is clear you have made no attempt to actually
understand the issue.

Anyway, I don't know what to say to a person who makes as absurd a
statement as "saguNa brahman is nirupAdhika". Running out of
adjectives, really...

<<Anyway, I don't see evidence for negation of Ishwara.>>

I don't mean to be critical but there is clear evidence that you
haven't the slightest idea of what is meant by "negation" in advaita.

<< The sharp difference that you draw between Nirguna Brahman and
Saguna Brahman is unsubstantiated. There cannot be three entities in
Turiya - Nirguna Brahman, Para Maya and their composite Saguna
Brahman. There is only one entity termed differently based on the
function from vyavahara perspective.>>

No one claimed the above. FYI, turIya = Atman = nirguNa brahman

That which is really nirguNa/nirvisheSha appears to take on various
upAdhi-s and expresses itself as saguNa/savisheSha.

The svarUpa of Ishvara = nirguNa brahman
The svarUpa of a jIva = nirguNa brahman
The svarUpa of a rock = nirguNa brahman

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