[Advaita-l] Waking and Dream States - II

Michael Shepherd michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk
Wed Apr 1 04:59:59 CDT 2009

Sri Sadanandaji, pranams --

Thank you again. This is a 'small' matter; but one that raises questions in

It is clear that we are only dealing with a situation where there appears to
be little consciousness available -- no chidaabhaasa -- yet a 'by-product'
which remains for a short time in awareness. What is watched, passively
(though some allege they can be trained to 'participate' in the dream), is
constructed from memories, which by definition are in chitta -- leftovers
from the feast !

Given this, and the situation which you have pointed out, that any
'analysis' takes place in a different state of being, I revert to my
original question : may we learn anything from our dreams? Or is their
playing-out, itself a psychotherapy which we may happily leave to itself, as
a film playing to an empty cinema...

As I say -- this is small matter in regard to Brahman and maya; but the
question persists... a strange phenomenon !


-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of
kuntimaddi sadananda
Sent: 01 April 2009 02:13
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Waking and Dream States - II

Michaelji - PraNAms

Here is my understanding.

Waker is bahiH prajnaH - It is the consciousness 'that I am' identified with
local entity (I am avoiding use of the BMI) that becomes conscious of the
external objects as Shree Pranipataji pointed out. Since the external
objects are perceived through the senses and since senses function and
bringing the information about the objects when several other factors such
as external light etc are all favorable. Since starting objects and
perception of the objects along with external conducive environments -  it
is rightly termed as bahiH prajnaH - obviously with reference to the wakers
mind that perceives the external world.

In contrast, the dreamer is creating the dream world in his own mind only -
Now looking at the dream world we can say consciousness identified with the
dream subject in the dream is conscious of the all the objects not by any
external light but light as though from his own consciousness. Hence
scripture is calling as taijasa. Here it is the internal to the mind, with
reference to the waker's mind. However looking at the mind of the tiny
subject in the dream, it is external. The tiny dream subject may need an
external light to study a text and he will see it is all dark when all the
lights are turned off -All that can be in the dream. Even those lights that
are needed for a dream subject is also created by the waker's mind only. In
Mantra 4, the discussion is done from the point of the waking mind. But when
the next statement of the Upanishad that defines the antaH prajnaH with
nineteen gateways and saptaangaH - we are defining with reference to the
 guy inside the dream. The reference points should be clear.

Not to complicate further, but for as a thought exercise, if that tiny
subject in the dream goes to sleep (in the dream) and dreams in his sleep we
have a second order dream and gets up from his sleep and attends ManDukya
Up. class studying the mantras 3 and 4 in the dream, he will understand that
he is a waker and when he went to that (second order) dream, he created
himself as a sub-tiny guy; and the perceptions will be inside while as a
waker in the dream the perceptions are outside. These illustrate that from
what reference these discussions are made have to important. It is the
consciousness that I am, identifying with each subject in turn.

As pranipataji pointed - it is the consciousness, the self, that is
identifying with each entity in each reference. However, without the point
of reference, there is no bahiH or antaH.

Hope this is clear.

Hari Om!

--- On Tue, 3/31/09, Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>

From: Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>

I had forgotten that the term taijasa covers the limited consciousness and
concept of this 'dream self'. And I confess to the urge to explain the world
in terms of my waking dream !

I guess that it's not unreasonable to question the Lord -- 'Lord, why did
You give the jiva three states of consciousness, even four ?' in the hope
that the Lord may answer in His own way... :)

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