satyan_c at yahoo.com
Wed Feb 1 04:15:03 CST 2006
Namaste shrI Mahesh,
> Let me illustrate!
> You consider love to be part of the manas? I think you are watching too much
> Discovery and reading too little Rumi! :-)
Sir, with the Lord's grace, I left watching television years ago when I was told to use any discretionary time in more fruitful ways. So I do not think that the former is true :)
Rumi, yes, you are right that I have read very less of him. I had read a bit when I was younger but I have not ventured into other traditions because I do not find the need any more given that vedAnta has kept me busy and most likely will for the rest of the janma.
Just to clarify, when I mentioned various emotions that are in the manas, In fact, a mother has a beautiful manas because the manas manifests the love for her child. So I do not necessarily see that love gets denigrated because it is manifested in the manas. In fact, how else can the mother express the loving thoughts for her child without the instrument that the Lord has given her? The manas is the faculty for emotions and one should strive to express beautiful and pure emotions in it, shouldn't it be so? A mother naturally expresses it, which is the way the Lord has created her role in the scheme of things. She doesn't do it willingly, she has no choice but to manifest that love.
I do not want to start or at least be involved in a discussion on love and faith and intuition because we are already having hands full with the knowledge part of it already :). I hope that we can save it for a future point.
With respect to reasoning, when we speak of the subtle intellect, we are speaking of an intellect supportive of the sruti in terms of reasoning and not based on independent human reasoning (independent of sruti) that obviously can lead to fallacious and invalid conclusions! So the one who has shraddhA in the sruti will see the validity of the sruti with supportive reasoning even if what is stated by the sruti cannot be proved by human reasoning (independent of the sruti). e.g can independent human reasoning prove rebirth or that mantra japam purifies the mind? But a shraddhAvan takes it that it is there because the sruti says so and he can support the validity of it as well using his subtle intellect and he also sees no way to contradict what the sruti says either. Hence, he is convinced of its validity.
Mahesh Ursekar <mahesh.ursekar at gmail.com> wrote: Pranams!
Dear sir, if I read you right, I do think you do attach too much importance
to this trifle called the intellect!
Let me illustrate!
You consider love to be part of the manas? I think you are watching too much
Discovery and reading too little Rumi! :-)IMHO, it is like putting the
proverbial cart before the horse! Love commands, the intellect obeys. Why,
then do we say, quite truly, - love is a madness! In madness, where is the
room for the intellect to function? Why does a mother love her ugly son
while the world wonders - "what does she see in him?" Can the intellect even
begin to comprehend this thing called love - it would only be a naive one to
accept this. Love is transcendantal. Love is.
Take faith now. How does one explain it? The intellect is merely a register
to record its presence but it stems from a higher power. How did Nag
Mahasaya (a householder disciple of Sri Ramakrishna) make the ganges flow
out from his garden with nothing but faith? Why do they say - faith can move
mountains and Moses proved it! It lies in the intellect since poor humans
have just that faculty to know things but it is something much much bigger!
Sanjay mentioned intution. I think the same applies. Intution lets the
intellect take a 'firm conviction' if that is what you like to call it
Intution is higher than intellectual understanding. "I know this must be
true", one says without justification or reasoning or in most cases against
And last, let us take your erstwhile Jnani. Well, all the fellow (or felli)
can do is say that 'truth' can't be this, can't be that (Neti, Neti) till
s/he reaches a point where there is a flash of "reality" and all falls into
place. S/he cannot really intellectually understand truth anyway!
Please don't misunderstand me by thinking I attach less importance to Jnana
(or else I would not be on this list) but lets not lose sight of the bigger
picture - truth or love is bigger, grander and more inexplicable than any of
Humble pranams, Mahesh
On 1/31/06, Satyan Chidambaran wrote:
> namaste shrI Amuthan,
> >> if you call one trying for nirvikalpa samAdhi as a
> >> special experience chaser, then, one who learns
> >> vedAnta is a special knowledge chaser!
> In fact, there is nothing more prudent in advaita than to chase
> the special knowledge (about the Self) under a qualified Guru via the
> valid pramAna for gaining the knowledge (ie the sruti). Shouldn't
> every mumukshu, in advaita vedAnta, strive to chase the special
> knowledge that will liberate him or her? This is because that knowledge
> alone first purifies and eventually liberates.
> na hi jnanena sadrsam pavitram iha vidyate (B.G)
> This knowledge, if gained properly, will show that there is nothing to be
> gained at all and one is already what one seeks to become. What one is
> looking for is already there in *ALL* experiences, one was simply mistaken
> about ones identity. One who knows this is a bramhavit.
> In advaita vedAnta, one should rather be a "knowledge seeker" that
> is able to see the truth spoken by the sruti in *all* experiences
> rather than an "experience seeker" who sees what one fancies as the truth
> in only certain experiences and misses it in the rest of the experiences.
> >> for everyone other than a uttamAdhikAri,
> >> nirvikalpaka samAdhi is necessary, though that alone
> >> is not sufficient.
> It is neither necessary nor sufficient for gaining moksha in
> advaita vedAnta. samAdhi abhyAsa may no doubt help gain antar-mukhatvam
> (inward orientedness) and vairAgyam which are qualifications for
> gaining knowledge. However, nirvikalpa samAdhi is not necessary for
> gaining those qualifications either because they can be cultivated
> through other means.
> On the other hand, what is both necessary and sufficient for moksha
> is the j~nAnam gained from the sruti's words and nishtA (abidance) in
> the j~nAnam through mananam and nidhidyAsanam. One should strive to be
> a j~nAna nishtA whose understanding of the sruti's vision is
> unshakable and one who constantly sees through the eyes of the sruti in
> all experiences. Then, it doesn't matter what the experience is:
> prArabha will bring whatever it brings. If it brings nirvikalpa samadhi, so
> be it. If it doesn't, so be it. One is liberated, no matter what
> ones' external situations are.
> The j~nAna nishtA will experience bramha j~nAna phalam which will include
> poornatvam, uncaused joy etc, which of course will be experienced, but they
> are fruits of j~nAnam and not causes of j~nAnam.
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