[Advaita-l] Re: Kundalini
Jaldhar H. Vyas
jaldhar at braincells.com
Thu Mar 3 17:43:07 CST 2005
On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, ramesh badisa wrote:
> Badisa: The following Upanishads:
> Yogachudamanuyo upanishad,
> Brahmavidya Upanishad
We are back to the vexing problem of which are genuine upanishads and
which are later forgeries.
> Badisa: In the above four upanishds, the term 'satchakras' is
> mentioned, meaning that there are 6 chakras, not 7. The crown of the
> head is not counted as a chakra. What are these 7 lokas that you have
> mentioned in your answer?
the seven lokas from bhu, bhuva, svah (swarga), maha, jana, tapa, to satya.
Only the first six are lokas. satyaloka is Brahman so the correspondence
> Are you saying that these 7 lokas are those
> through which the qualified soul passes through and then finally
> reaches Brahma Lok (BL), as described in 8/24 of Gita or Upanishads? If
> you say yes, then there are not 7 lokas described either in Ch. Up. Or
> Br. Up. For example, in Ch. Up. 4.15.5, there are 9 lokas, not 7,
> described (the qualified soul, after the death of the physical body
> passes through archies, day light, shukla paksha (bright fort night of
> the moon), uttarayan, god of year, sun, moon, vidyuth and finally, BL).
> The same path with 9 lokas is again confirmed in the same Upanishad
> (Ch. Up) at 5.10.2. Similarly, in Br. Up. 6.2.15, there are 9 lokas
> described. But in Kaushitaki Brahmana Up. 1.3, there are 7 lokas
> described. Since Ch. Up, Br. Up and Kau. Up are talking about the same
> path, it is true that there are more than 8 lokas, not 7 lokas, through
> which the qualified soul passes through and reaches finally reaches and
> halts at BL. In Kau. Up. Some lokas are omitted, and this does not mean
> that there are only 7 lokas through which the qualified soul passes
> through. This type of ommission of lokas is also found in Gita 8/24
> path, where only 5 lokas are mentioned. It does not mean that there are
> only 5 lokas. The reason for this ommision in Gita may be based on the
> fact that number of lokas is not important to reveal to Arjun. Because
> that was not the primary aim of Lord Krishna at that point of time. The
> question I would like to ask you here is what are the 7 lokas you are
> talking about?
I will try and look up the excat references for you but Brahmana,
Upanishadic and puranic texts do mention the equivalance of seven vyahrtis
with seven lokas
> And how come these 6 charkas, [as mentioned in
> Upanishads] would represent the same thing of 8 lokas [as described in
> Upanishads or 7 lokas, as per understanding]?
Probably this is not to be taken literally but these are various systems
of upasana with a common goal which is to progressively expand the
consiousness of the conventional man until he identifies himself with
Brahman. The Brahmasutras do say that although the vidyas mentioned in
the jnanakanda have different forms, they have a unitary purpose.
> Can you give any
> reference from Upanishads, or Gita or Brahma Sutras to show that 7
> chakras and 7 lokas represent the same thing?
I'm afraid not and neither has Shankaracharya or any other ancient
commentator mentioned the subject. This could be because:
1. These "upanishads" are not genuine.
2. They are genuine but Shankaracharya was not familiar with them
3. They are genuine and Shankaracharya was familiar with them but did
not think them relevant to Vedanta.
4. They are genuine and Shankaracharya was familiar with them but he
thought they contained secret doctrines not to be revealed in
Or possibly other reasons. We don't have enough information to make
anything more than a guess. Tantra is a wide-ranging phenomenon and some
varieties are consonant with Vedic thought like Shrividya and even have
their origin in the Vedas while other types are nastika and totally
against Vedic norms.
You should try and find out what someone like e.g. Shri Bhaskararaya who
was a master Vaidika as well as a master shrividya upasaka has to say
> In my opinion, they have to be different. Because, the journey of the
> qualified soul on 8/24 path of Gita or the path described in Ch. Up. Or
> Br. Up etc., starts after the death of physical body of the sadhaka.
> Once on this path of 8/24 of Gita, the qualified soul never comes back
> to the world to take birth. Instead, it passes through different lokas
> and finally reaches to Brahma Lok (BL) with the guidance of amanav
> purush. This soul, called liberated soul, will stay at BL till the time
> of pralaya, and then it merges in divine. Now, as per your
> understanding, if 7 lokas (for a moment we assume here that there are 7
> lokas, based on your understanding) represent 7 chakras (for a moment we
> assume that there are 7 chakras) on the subtle body, then failure on the
> part of sadhaka to reach the highest chakra (it should be the 7th chakra
> crown of the head, as per your understanding) before death will make
> the soul of this sadhaka to take another birth. If 7 lokas and 7 chakras
> the same, then same thing should happen in both cases. Right? But, in
> one case, the qualified soul moves to BL, and in the other case, the
> soul takes the birth, indicating that both cannot be the representation
> of one. Here, can you say that 7 lokas represent the 7 chakras only for
> a successful sadhaka, where he successfully reaches the 7th chakra before
> death? No. Because, the soul of this successful sadhaka, [who reached the
> crown of the head and thus experienced the final truth when living], will
> not go to any lokas. Then what will happen to this soul after physical
> death of the sadhka? It merges immediately in divine (which is called
> immediate salvation). On the other hand, the liberated soul, waiting at
> BL, will get the same merging at the time of pralaya.
> If your understanding that 7 chakras represent 7 lokas is correct, then
> can you tell who is the equivalent person on 7 chakras to guide the soul
> to BL? In case of 8/24 following soul, amanav purush comes from BL, and
> guides the soul to BL. But, in case of 7 chakras, where is such amanav
> purush coming from and where he will lead it to? To BL? It cannot be.
> Because, all charkas are present on the subtle body of the sadhaka, and
> if this sadhaka is successful in reaching the crown of the head, then he
> will achieve immediate salvation. On the other hand, if he is
> unsuccessful, then he will be born again in the world. Then in that
> case, where is the question of amanav purush in the picture or his
> guiding to BL? Can you explain?
This requires further research. I shall try and respond soon.
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at braincells.com>
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