Ashish Chandra ramkisno at HOTMAIL.COM
Mon Aug 19 08:04:00 CDT 2002

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:20:14 -0700, Kiran B R <kiranbr at ROCKETMAIL.COM>

>> accordance to Ishwara's "plan". A jivanmukta can
>> make a lamp burn with
>> water. That is breaking the law of physics for you.
>Yes, that is exactly what I meant by "breaking the
>laws of physics". But I don't understand why you're
>postulating a duality between Ishwara and Brahman. To
>the Brahman, Ishwara's plan is HIS own plan. Ishwara
>is nothing but HIMSELF. Then where is the question of
>waiting for a divine signature on a tender?

Ishvara is a construct in duality - i.e. it is within the world of duality
that Ishvara exists for the benefit of mumukshus. What a jIvA (individual
soul deluded by avidyA - primal ignorance) is, Ishvara is the very same,
except for the fact that Ishvara is the controller of mAyA (so it is not
called avidyA as it does not delude Ishvara). Ishvara is Saguna Brahman -
with qualities like omniscience, omnipotence etc. Brahman has no such
qualities because quality necessitates an another to compare with. When
Brahman alone is, what quality can be ascribed? When we do ascribe
qualities to Brahman, we are talking about Ishvara, but then we are also
talking within this world of mAyA.

Let us say you are Ishvara. If I were to attain knowledge of Brahman, my
knowledge would mean that I KNOW that you and I are essentially one and
that the differences are only in name and form (and powers). But once
Brahman is known (or realized), Ishvara does not exist, niether do I (as a
person with hands etc). The REAL is known. But when this world is talked
about, even a jivanmukta KNOWS that his work in this world of duality is
also the work of Ishvara because he KNOWS that both are ONE. That is why
they do no do anything that is against Ishvara's "plan" - something known
only to Himself and those who KNOW.

>How can water boil and not freeze when heated? That is
>how. If indeed this is all maayaa, water must freeze
>when heated, and this must be shown by the jIvanmukta.
>This must be shown by Krishna. This must be shown by
>Sri Shankaracharya.

You must understand that the "laws" that exist in mAyA are for our benefit
only - so that we may progress onwards. These people can subvert these laws
but as others on this list have mentioned, there is no Atmic progress
involved in subverting or circumventing these laws. The divine laws exist
so that divinity is protected and maintained.

>Otherwise an incapability remains in the jIvanmukta,
>in Krishna and in Sri Shankaracharya. What
>incapability? The incapability to control the material
>world. This incapability is equivalent to a dualism,
>which is not good for Advaita.

Jivanmukta is a person to you and me who can do something that we can't.
However, what he knows we cannot know without becoming him. To a
jivanmukta, the material world is one with him. There is no difference. He
sees himself (Brahman) in all.


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