[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: Is there a real jagat?

[raghavkumar00 at gmail.com]

Namaste SubbujiWouldn’t both viśiṣṭādvaita as well as advaita agree on the anāditvaṁ of dehātma-bhrama implying both schools look at pūrva-bhrama saṁskāra causing subsequent janma with its attendant dehātma bhāva?
The only difference being the satyatva of the body and mithyātva of the body?
OmRaghav


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On Thursday, October 2, 2025, 3:54 PM, V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 12:19 PM Kalyan Chakravarthy <
kalyanchakravarthy2021 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Sri Subbuji
>
> I have fundamentally no problem with any of the Bhagavata purana quotes
> you gave.
>
> However, your methodology of trying to counter a purely logical question
> from dvaitins/vishishta-advaitins using scripture, is incorrect, because
> the other parties are sure to have their own explanations of such
> scriptural passages.
>
> Meaning, I am saying that a logical question must be countered purely
> logically, not by resorting to scripture.
>
> Even if you disagree with what I say, please note that at least I am
> looking for a logic based answer to this question.
>

Dear Kalyan ji,

It is solely with the difficulty they face to give a logical answer to that
do the non-Advaitins have devised a different way of explaining those
verses. I have already asked the counter question:  What about the Atma
adhyasa in the body-mind complex or the reverse? Should one not have seen a
real body mind complex before he superimposed the same on the Atman?  If
they find a reply to that, then they would not pose that question to the
Advaitin.

The Advaitins have already provided the answer:  Adhyasa requires only
samskara and a samskara can be generated even from an unreal thing.



> Best Regards
> Kalyan
>
> On Thursday, 2 October 2025 at 11:40:21 am UTC+5:30 v.subrahmanian wrote:
>
>> The Bhagavatam gives the rope-snake and garland-snake analogies for the
>> world:
>>
>> आत्मानमेव आत्मतया अविजानतां
>> तेनैव जातं निखिलं प्रपञ्चितम् ।
>> ज्ञानेन भूयोऽपि च तत्प्रलीयते
>> रज्ज्वामहेर्भोगभवाभवौ यथा ।। 10.14.25
>>
>> A person who mistakes a rope for a snake becomes fearful, but he then
>> gives up his fear upon realizing that the so-called snake does not exist.
>> Similarly, for those who fail to recognize You as the Supreme Soul of all
>> souls, the expansive illusory material existence arises, but knowledge of
>> You at once causes it to subside.
>>
>> यस्मिन्निदं सदसदात्मतया विभाति
>> माया विवेकविधुति स्रजि वाहिबुद्धिः ।
>> तं नित्यमुक्तपरिशुद्धविशुद्धतत्त्वं
>> प्रत्यूढकर्मकलिलप्रकृतिं प्रपद्ये ॥३८॥ Bhagavatam 4/22/38
>>
>> The creation is appearing in Brahman due to maya, just as one would take
>> a rope for a snake. The true nature of Brahman can be known by viveka.
>> Obeisance to that Brahman that is nitya mukta shuddha and free from the
>> blemish of karma.
>>
>> Thus Veda Vyasa has used the rope-snake analogy for the world-appearance
>> in Brahman.  It is not just the Advaitins that use the analogy.
>>
>> warm regards
>> subbu
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 9:37 AM Kalyan Chakravarthy <
>> kalyanchakr... at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Sri Vikramji
>>>
>>> In this case, how does this answer the original question?
>>>
>>> Lets recap a bit. I am dropping off English and using some Sanskrit
>>> terms.
>>>
>>> Opponent is claiming that - Mithya snake can be superimposed on a Satya
>>> Rope only if there is an experience of a Satya snake beforehand. (Any
>>> complicated examples one can think of would still always involve a Satya
>>> entity.)
>>>
>>> Best Regards
>>> Kalyan
>>>
>>> On Thursday, 2 October 2025 at 7:43:22 am UTC+5:30 Vikram Jagannathan
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaskaram Kalyan ji,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> << it appears to me that Sri Shankara rejects beginningless series of
>>>> mental impressions (without corresponding ontological entities like
>>>> objects). I think your response proposes beginningless series of mental
>>>> impressions.  >>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Bhagavan Bhashyakara rejects beginningless series of mental
>>>> impressions without corresponding ontological entities like objects.
>>>> However, my response (which I believe to be Advaita response) is
>>>> beginningless series of impressions (karma / vasanas) *but includes*
>>>> the corresponding ontological entities (categorized as mithya).
>>>>
>>>> Without the ontological reality of the objects, the mental impressions
>>>> become baseless & illogical, which is the criticism against Buddhists;
>>>> however with the ontological reality of the objects there is no more any
>>>> logical flaw.
>>>>
>>>> prostrations,
>>>> Vikram
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 7:01 PM Kalyan Chakravarthy <
>>>> kalyanchakr... at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Sri Vikramji
>>>>>
>>>>> >There is a subtle, and very pertinent, difference between Bhagavan
>>>>> Bhashyakara's argument against the Buddhists and Advaita's response to your
>>>>> question.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope you will pardon me if I call it "your response" and not
>>>>> "advaita's response",  at least until I know that this is the position
>>>>> adopted by traditional teachers of advaita.
>>>>>
>>>>> Secondly, Please note, I am not in anyway suggesting similarities here
>>>>> between Buddhism and Advaita.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having clarified the above -Whether it is your response or the
>>>>> Buddhist position, it appears to me that Sri Shankara rejects beginningless
>>>>> series of mental impressions (without corresponding ontological entities
>>>>> like objects). I think your response proposes beginningless series of
>>>>> mental impressions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards
>>>>> Kalyan
>>>>>
>>>> --
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