[Advaita-l] Avidya is virodha or abhava-1 review and redo

[Michael Chandra Cohen]

Namaste Jaishankarji, second wind ...

//I am not saying asat taken as non existence is creating anything. //
yes, clear.
//Here clearly bhAshyakAra is saying asat has to be understood as
avyAkrta...//
I don't believe that is what Sankara is saying. It is asat as Brahman that
is to be thought of as unmanifest from the name and form manifest's
perspective.
Chat's translation of the vakya you presented from 2.7.1,

*//ततः असतः वै सत् प्रविभक्तनामरूपविशेषम् अजायत उत्पन्नम् ।*
>From *asat* indeed, *sat*, as name-and-form differentiated (i.e.,
manifest), was born—came into being.

*किं ततः प्रविभक्तं कार्यमिति - पितुरिव पुत्रः ?*
Is this differentiated effect (kārya) from that (asat), like a son from a
father?

*नेत्याह ।*
No, [the Upaniṣad] negates that.

*तत् असच्छब्दवाच्यं स्वयमेव आत्मानमेव अकुरुत कृतवत् ।*
That which is denoted by the word *asat* created only itself, namely its
own Self—just like an agent acting (kṛtavat) does.//

"That which is denoted by the word asat' is Brahman as if unmanifest. You
needlessly give asat a bhava that is intended for Brahman alone. "in the
beginning before creation; asat was but Brahman that could be called asat."
Gambhir tr.

Further, "For, whenever the aspirant creates the slightest difference in
It, he is' smitten with fear. Nevertheless, that very Brahman is a terror
to the (so called) learned man- who lacks the unitive outlook. Illustrative
of this (unitive outlook) here is a verse: Asat vai idam agre astt, in the
beginning all this was but the unmanifested (Brahman). By the word asat is
meant the unmanifested state of Brahman as contrasted with the state in
which distinctions of name and form become manifested."

Asat is a word in the context of distinctions that stands for the
unmanifest state of Brahman. It is not asat that is avyakta. Sir, I bow to
your Sanskrit but that's what it seems to be saying to me.
//... and the avyAkrta itself becomes sat which has to be understood as
vyAkrta. //
I don't follow. How does avyakrta become sat?

//Further both avyAkrta and vyAkrta are anrtam (Tai Up Bh 2.1) / asat (BG
2.16) and depend on brahman for their very existence.//
See, this seems clearly a contradiction. If something is anrtam is doesn't
exist, just like 2.16 asat, no? avyAkrta/vyAkrta are namarupa only. Are you
saying anrtam and namarupa are distinct? They depend on Brahman, not as
entities but as adhyasa only.

//It is funny to see those who claim jnAna-abhAva as kArana and bIja and
that it produces the kArya which is dvaita-grahaNa accuse me of saying asat
can create sat. //
We don't say jnAna-abhAva is kalakrama/time and space causation. We say it
is pratipatti krama, logical sequence - if you see yourself in the world,
that wrong notion implies you don't know your true self - jnana abhava.
Bhasyakara refers to avidya as nimittah karana not upadana karana,  as you
might wish. Hacker et. al, are clear on this despite nuanced challenges
(see my most recent post, Avidya is Viruddha -5)  Please sir, you have
repeatedly misunderstood SSSS on this point

//You cannot simply brush it (avarana as a material covering) aside as
figurative.//
I agree - it is denied for other reasons as well. Please see my response
'Avidya is virodha -3', dealing with Gita 5.15 & 13.2 etc.

regards,

On Sat, Jul 12, 2025 at 2:36 PM Jaishankar Narayanan <jai1971 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste ji,
>
> What you have written about Kena Upanishad vAkya is not correct. Please do
> shravanam from some traditional shrotriya Guru. May God bless you with such
> a Guru.
>
> with love and prayers,
> Jaishankar
>
> On Sat, Jul 12, 2025 at 10:37 PM Raja Krishnamurti <
> rajakrishnamurti at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone, We are here only to seek Brahman the one and everything
>> as well and ultimately realize That. What we are doing here is purely
>> intellectual and one has to go beyond pure intellectualism; Of course
>> intellectualism is better than body or mind level. in Vedanta, there are
>> four key requirements or qualifications (sādhana-catuṣṭaya) considered
>> essential for an aspirant to be prepared for the study of the Vedas and the
>> pursuit of spiritual liberation (moksha). These are: Nitya-Anitya Vastu
>> Viveka (नित्यानित्य वस्तु विवेकः): This refers to the ability to
>> discriminate between the eternal (nitya) and the impermanent (anitya). It's
>> about recognizing that Brahman (the ultimate reality) is eternal and
>> unchanging, while the material world and all its objects are temporary and
>> subject to change. As indicated Nitya Anitya discrimination is the
>> fundamental requirement. One needs to understand that anitya is only that
>> which is impermanent and has no existence without the Truth or even better
>> Rutham which is the Reality that is beyond perception. The Kena Upanishad
>> states that one who claims to know Brahman does not truly know it, while
>> one who acknowledges their ignorance of Brahman is considered to have some
>> understanding. This is because Brahman is considered unknowable through
>> ordinary means of cognition. Let us individually seek the truth as Moksha
>> is not wholesale, but is based on God’s Grace and individual karma. God
>> Bless All.
>>
>>
>>