[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [advaitin] Understanding Srimad Bhagavad Gita from the perspectives of Visishtadvaita and Advaita - an exposition

[V Subrahmanian]

One very beautiful  correspondence between Shankara and Ramanuja in this
Gita verse:

बहूनां जन्मनामन्ते ज्ञानवान्मां प्रपद्यते।

वासुदेवः सर्वमिति स महात्मा सुदुर्लभः।।7.19।।

Shankara: For that Jnani/devotee: Vasudeva is All, everything. Ramanuja:
'My everything / for me everything is Vasudeva.'

regards



On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 9:58 AM Vikram Jagannathan <vikkyjagan at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaskaram Shri Suresh ji,
>
> My response is tangential to your email. Notwithstanding your comments, I
> would like to once more clarify my intent with this article.
>
> My intent here is not to find a common ground between Advaita &
> Visishtadvaita or identify ways how the two systems can be brought closer
> by approximating certain concepts. I do not wish to dilute either
> sampradhayam even by an iota. My intent is to demonstrate that “Advaita
> does not stand in conflict against Visishtadvaita''. In other words, the
> criticisms against Advaita are actually misplaced. This does not mean that
> there is a bi-directional 1:1 mapping between the two systems. In fact,
> there simply doesn’t exist one such mapping.
>
> Certain fundamental concepts of Advaita - such as the one immutable
> homogenous Brahman, from the perspective of ignorance, appears as the trio
> of Isvara, Jiva, Jagat. On transcending this ignorance, there is then the
> realization of distinctionless attributeless true nature of one’s own Self
> / Atman / Brahman - is just not acceptable to other sampradhayams. Any
> reconciliation will have to dilute this principle. This is Shri Subbu ji’s
> point too when he said that certain concepts of Advaita are simply not
> reconcilable with other systems. I am 100% in agreement with his view and I
> am just trying the other directional alignment (stating that
> non-restrictive VA concepts have an alignment within Advaita and not that
> the Advaita concepts all have an alignment with VA).
>
> In the article, by stating Advaita perspective, which stands different
> from VA perspective, the context is set to understand SBG unambiguously in
> a comparative study. However, the next logical question is that if it is
> said the Advaita perspective is correct, and since it is different from VA
> perspective, does it mean the VA perspective is incorrect? The answer is
> that it is not so. From a certain perspective, it is seen that VA concepts
> are actually aligned with Advaita teachings as well. This corresponds to
> the second part of the article on alignment. Therefore one isn’t
> necessarily wrong by just following either sampradhayam. Adhikari bheda
> (which I loosely termed as one’s temperament) comes into play in following
> the appropriate system.
>
> I am sharing more details of my intent, only to avoid any
> misunderstandings or confusions as to the purpose of the article itself.
> With the intention clarified, I am hoping to receive positive guidance, and
> feedback for any corrections, from learned members. It is also for my
> self-reflection on some of the deeper nuances of Advaita.
>
> Dhanyosmi!
>
> with humble prostrations,
> Vikram
>
> On Sat, Jan 27, 2024 at 10:20 PM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Suresh ji,
>>
>> Thanks for your nice words. The Vaishnava concept of jiva being of aNu
>> size is what comes in the way of a desired reconciliation.
>>
>> Yes, if esoteric meaning is preferred to literal one, then there can be a
>> lot of reconciliation. But the question is how many are ready to do that.
>>
>> Warm regards
>> subbu
>>
>> On Sun, 28 Jan 2024, 4:17 am suresh srinivasamurthy, <
>> sureshsmr at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Sri Subbu-ji,
>>>
>>> <
>>> The liberated do not travel to any other place/loka, for any such travel
>>> will imply that the jiva is still in samsara. Since Brahman is infinite,
>>> the jnani who has realized his identity with Brahman, also being the
>>> Infinite Brahman alone, does not go anywhere upon death.  For, Brahman is
>>> not a finite place to be reached/attained.  If Brahman were located in a
>>> place then Brahman, being no different from any formed object, will have to
>>> have a beginning and end, and be dependent on something else, be made of
>>> parts, and ephemeral, and a produced one.  Brahman can never be of this
>>> nature.  Thus, the ‘attainment’ of Brahman cannot be involving any locating
>>> in some other place.
>>>
>>> The position of the VA on this matter cannot be compromised. Hence on
>>> this crucial issue there can't be a reconciliation between the two systems.
>>> >
>>>
>>> Personally, I agree with Vikram-ji and think that reconciliation is
>>> possible and infact it is already there though it is not openly accepted by
>>> staunch followers :)
>>>
>>> This is because Brahman is accepted as the Self in VA also which is all
>>> pervading and so not limited to any particular place. Vishnu is accepted as
>>> jnAnamaya and antaryAmi Atma (Self) and oneness among all the infinite
>>> forms of Vishnu is accepted in Dvaita also. In all traditions, Brahman is
>>> always the indwelling sarvAtma / paramAtma (universal Self) and is never
>>> anAtma. Existence of jagat as Brahma shareera is acceptable to Sri
>>> Shankara as per the Prashnopanishad 6-8 bhashya and Jagatshareeratva of
>>> Brahman does not limit the infinite nature of Brahman and helps to
>>> establish sanatanatva of dharma and guru-shishya parampara which is common
>>> across all sampradaya. Sri Ramanuja also accepts validity of moksha in the
>>> form of kaivalya.
>>>
>>> Though "going to Vaikunta" loka and serving the Lord is widely accepted
>>> in VA, there is another level of realization where the Lord alone is seen
>>> and nothing else. Vaikunta is also the name of the Lord and so the
>>> "travel" of mukta jiva to attain the Lord is not physical but an inward
>>> "spiritual journey" which could be interpreted as constant
>>> experience/darshan of the Lord in such a way that nothing else is seen. Sri
>>> TiruppAnAlvar describes this in his AmalanAdipiran prabandham as
>>> "Yennamudinai kanda kangal mattondrun kAnAve". ( Having seen my beloved
>>> Lord my eyes are not seeing anything ). Though this is not the same as
>>> Advaitic realization it is still very close.
>>>
>>> Brahman is accepted as the paramAtma / SarvAtma in all sampradAya and
>>> shareerAtma bheda between jagat and Brahman/Self is also very experiential.
>>> So, I would consider that as a common ground that essentially reconciles
>>> all traditional views. IMHO all different traditions compliment each other
>>> and helps to experience Truth/Brahman in different ways. All differences
>>> are only superficial.
>>>
>>> Namaste,
>>> Suresh
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* advaitin at googlegroups.com <advaitin at googlegroups.com> on behalf
>>> of V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 26, 2024 7:55 AM
>>> *To:* advaitin at googlegroups.com <advaitin at googlegroups.com>
>>> *Cc:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [advaitin] Understanding
>>> Srimad Bhagavad Gita from the perspectives of Visishtadvaita and Advaita -
>>> an exposition
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 12:27 PM Vikram Jagannathan <
>>> vikkyjagan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Namaskaram Shri Subbu ji,
>>>
>>> Agreeing on the difference. I will defer to Shri Krishna Kashyap ji for
>>> sharing more details on SriVaikunta at maha-pralaya. I have heard some
>>> conflicting theories and would rather withhold my opinion due to lack of
>>> clarity & understanding.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, long ago I had arrived at this conclusion:  How does advaita view
>>> the other two schools? The answer is: The sadhana involving strong
>>> vairagyam towards the world and pure devotion to Bhagavan alone that is
>>> seen in the other two schools will mean to the Advaitin that they will go
>>> to Brahma loka.  The idea that they will get Advaita jnanam there will not
>>> be accepted by them but the Advaitin would place the Smarta sagunopasaka in
>>> line with the sadhakas of the other two schools. The sagunopasaka of
>>> Advaita also reaches Brahma loka.  Up till this the sadhakas of the other
>>> schools can be accommodated in Advaita's krama mukti path.
>>>
>>> In Advaitasiddhi there is a section where the forms and lokas of
>>> Bhagavan have been considered and finally concluded that these are not
>>> absolutely real and eternal.  There the commentary Laghuchandrika says that
>>> 'there is no pramana for the existence of an uncreated a-bautika
>>> (non-elemental) vaikuntha.'
>>>
>>> warm regards
>>> subbu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However, the point I am trying to communicate is that the Advaita
>>> concept of krama-mukti is aligned with VA at least until the maha-pralaya
>>> state and therefore there should not be any reason for Visishtadvaitins for
>>> a conflict or criticism on this point of moksha marga against Advaita. In
>>> other words, from VA’s perspective, Advaita does not stand against VA at
>>> least until maha-pralaya. Of course Advaita goes a step further in the form
>>> of sadyo-mukti, but this should ideally not be a valid topic of criticism
>>> either since VA doesn’t believe in this concept or its logic to begin with.
>>>
>>> with humble prostrations,
>>> Vikram
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 12:12 AM V Subrahmanian <
>>> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Vikram ji,
>>>
>>> The krama mukti of Advaita involves getting the Advaita aham brahmasmi
>>> jnanam in that Brahma loka and remaining there till maha pralaya when that
>>> loka also will perish upon which the jivas there who are Jnanis, will
>>> become videha muktas as per advaita.  The position of VA is that in that
>>> ultimate scenario the muktas will be in Vaikuntha, with individual
>>> identities. This is because jiva-jiva and jiva-Ishwara bheda is absolutely
>>> real in VA.
>>>
>>> warm regards
>>> subbu
>>>
>>>
>>>
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