[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: Does the mukta/jnani see the world?

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,

But it is certainly an issue for me. I do not want to prove or establish
anyone's views to be erroneous. We just share or exchange views, access
references (not known to us earlier) to which we can refer and arrive at
our own conclusions. Just that. I am a student as well.

Since you are very particular, I will just state the following.

Reg  // So, what exactly is the error in saying that DSV and SDV cannot
lead to Moksha //,

It is not me saying so. Sri Bhagavatpada in his Bhashya states so. It is
best to align our understandings in line with the Bhashya.

Regards




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On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 4:59 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Chandramouli ji.
>
> I don't mind even if you hold my understanding as erroneous. If it can be
> established to be erroneous, I will be happy to change my understanding.
>
> Being proved erroneous is a matter of joy for me. There is no question of
> any hard feeling. I am a student.
>
> Regards.
>
> On Thu, 16 Nov, 2023, 4:53 pm H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namste Sudhanshu Ji,
>>
>> Firstly I would like to clarify that I am not questioning your judgement.
>> I have considered this thread as a discussion only. We are having different
>> view points and we are just discussing them. It is not as if I am claiming
>> my understanding to be the only correct view point. I hope we are in
>> agreement on that. If yes, I will proceed further. No hard feelings.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 4:37 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Chandramouli ji.
>>>
>>> Vivarta-drishTi is classified twofold in TIkA. NAnA-jIva and Eka-jIva.
>>> This is what is SDV and DSV. Both hold world to be a vivarta of Brahman.
>>>
>>> Now this Vivarta-drishTi is vyAmishra-drishTi. It is apavAda to
>>> pariNama-drishTi and Aropa to antyA-drishTi.
>>>
>>> antyA-drishTi is basically apavAda-drishTi which is what ajAtivAda is.
>>>
>>> "That there are several jIvAs, some are jnAnI, some are mumukshu etc" is
>>> classic SDV. "That I am the only jIva" is classic DSV.
>>>
>>> Now, TIkA says that earlier drishTi is to be submlimated to latter one.
>>> So, pariNama-drishTi is to be sublimated in NJV, which is turn to EJV and
>>> that in turn to antyA-drishTi i.e. ajAti.
>>>
>>> Vivarta-drishTi has been held in TIkA to be upayogI for Moksha
>>> parampaayA, not sAkshAt. It also says that Vivarta-drishTi maintains
>>> prapancha-bhrama and hence incapable of leading to dvaita-upashAnti which
>>> is Moksha.
>>>
>>> So, what exactly is the error in saying that DSV and SDV cannot lead to
>>> Moksha.
>>>
>>> That there is no srishTi is the truth. Whether it is sequential in SDV
>>> or simultaneous in DSV are both adhyAropa and cannot lead one to Moksha.
>>>
>>> No srishTi alone is truth. SDV has to give way to DSV and DSV to ajAti.
>>> What is the error here ?
>>>
>>> On Thu, 16 Nov, 2023, 4:25 pm H S Chandramouli, <
>>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,
>>>>
>>>> My concern was on the following two points already covered in my
>>>> earlier posts and I am copying from the same
>>>>
>>>> //  This implies that as per Sri MS,  all the prakriyAs lead to the
>>>> same Goal. There is no difference in the status of the sAdhaka who reaches
>>>> the Goal through whichever prakriyA. Your contention appears to imply that
>>>> the status is different depending upon whether SDV or DSV or AjAtivAda is
>>>> followed by the sAdhaka //
>>>>
>>>> And
>>>>
>>>> //  My point is only this. Neither DSV nor SDV can take one to Moksha.
>>>> For they are within the vivarta-vAda which maintains the prapancha-bhramatva
>>>> //.
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 4:10 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
>>>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Chandramouli ji.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what exactly is the error which you find in my statements so far
>>>>> which are not in accordance with TIkA.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Nov, 2023, 4:02 pm H S Chandramouli, <
>>>>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The tIkA clarifies the meaning of the word पदार्थधिया
>>>>>> (padArthadhiyA) appearing in the verse 84 as **  पदार्थधिया
>>>>>> शुद्धतत्वंपदार्थनिश्चयेन **  (padArthadhiyA
>>>>>> shuddhatatvaMpadArthanishchayena ). This is exactly what is stated in the
>>>>>> translation I had posted for verse 2-84 in my earlier post.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 3:39 PM H S Chandramouli <
>>>>>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the link. Since the title said Part 1, I did not check
>>>>>>> further earlier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The tIkA on 2-84 confirms my earlier stated understanding. तत्त्वमसि
>>>>>>> (tatvamasi) means परिपूर्णदृष्टिं
>>>>>>> निष्प्रपञ्चप्रत्यग्ब्रह्माभेददृष्टिम् (paripUrNadRRiShTiM
>>>>>>> niShprapa~nchapratyagbrahmAbhedadRRiShTim) stated in tIkA on verse 84.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 3:11 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
>>>>>>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Namaste Chandramouli ji.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pl check the TIkA.
>>>>>>>> https://archive.org/details/WRJC_sankshepa-sharirak-chapter-1-with-explanation-by-madhusudan-sarasvati-1887-kashika-press-kashi/page/n613/mode/2up
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 2:43 PM H S Chandramouli <
>>>>>>>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Reg  // The TIkA by MS on sankshepa shArIraka 2.82 to 2.85 may be
>>>>>>>>> perused. Here, the text classifies three drishTi, pariNAma-drishTi,
>>>>>>>>> vivarta-drishTi and antyA-drishTi. It says that one attains Moksha through
>>>>>>>>> antyA-drishTi by sequentially sublimating the earlier drishTi //,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was not able to get at the tIkA of Sri MS on SAMKSEPASARIRAKA.
>>>>>>>>> However I could get to download the text SAMKSEPASARIRAKA itself with
>>>>>>>>> translation by Prof Veezhinathan at the following link
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> //
>>>>>>>>> https://ia600906.us.archive.org/13/items/SankshepaSarirakaOfSarvajnatmaVeezhinathanN/Sankshepa%20Sariraka%20of%20Sarvajnatma%20Veezhinathan%20N_text.pdf
>>>>>>>>> //
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am copying below the translation of verses 2-83 to 2-85.  I have
>>>>>>>>> not copied for 2-82 as the page is missing. But it may not affect the
>>>>>>>>> conclusion.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2-83 // The view that the universe is real is the lowest (preli¬
>>>>>>>>> minary); and the view that the universe is not real lies in between (the
>>>>>>>>> lowest and the ultimate views'). The knowledge which instructs the universe
>>>>>>>>> to be unreal and which anni¬ hilates the illusive universe is ultimate. The
>>>>>>>>> blend (of the lowest and the ultimate views) is twofold as the notion of
>>>>>>>>> the existence of only one individual soul and the notion of existence of
>>>>>>>>> many souls longing for liberation. Here the negation of each preceding view
>>>>>>>>> leads to each succeeding view //
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2-84  // The aspirant sets aside the notion of transformation and
>>>>>>>>> then cultivates the notion of transfiguration. Dis¬ regarding even that by
>>>>>>>>> the knowledge of the (secondary) senses of the terms (tat and tvam in the
>>>>>>>>> sentence tat tvam asi) he attains the knowledge of the oneness of the self
>>>>>>>>> //
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2-85  //  The aspirant who longs for liberation and who is
>>>>>>>>> intended to be conveyed by the word atha1 pursues the variety of notions in
>>>>>>>>> due sequence as mentioned above. Then, being freed from the knowledge of
>>>>>>>>> all duality, he remains in his own supreme nature //.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is clear from the above, at least to me, that there appears to
>>>>>>>>> be a misunderstanding of the terms pariNAma-drishTi, vivarta-drishTi and
>>>>>>>>> antyA-drishTi cited by you from the tIkA. In my understanding,
>>>>>>>>> vivarta-drishTi refers to तत् (tat) only, and antyA-drishTi
>>>>>>>>> refers to तत्त्वमसि (tatvamasi). You may like to recheck the tIkA.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With this understanding, there is no difference between the tIkA
>>>>>>>>> and SDV/DSV as far as attaining Moksha is concerned. Your following
>>>>>>>>> statement may need review.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  //  My point is only this. Neither DSV nor SDV can take one to
>>>>>>>>> Moksha. For they are within the vivarta-vAda which maintains the
>>>>>>>>> prapancha-bhramatva // .
>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 7:03 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <
>>>>>>>>> sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Namaste Chandramouli ji,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The TIkA by MS on sankshepa shArIraka 2.82 to 2.85 may be
>>>>>>>>>> perused. Here, the text classifies three drishTi, pariNAma-drishTi,
>>>>>>>>>> vivarta-drishTi and antyA-drishTi. It says that one attains Moksha through
>>>>>>>>>> antyA-drishTi by sequentially sublimating the earlier drishTi.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> MS bifurcates vivarta-drishTi in two parts, nAnA-jIva and
>>>>>>>>>> one-jIva which is what SDV and DSV are respectively. He categorically
>>>>>>>>>> states that vivarta-drishTi is incapable of leading one to Moksha. I quote
>>>>>>>>>> from 2.82 - तत्त्वक्षति: प्रपञ्चसत्यत्वक्षतिकरी या विवर्तदृष्टि: सा मध्यमा,
>>>>>>>>>> ब्रह्मविचाराद्यधीन विवर्तदृष्टेः विवेकादिमत् पुरुषाश्रायत्वात् परम्परया
>>>>>>>>>> मोक्षोपयोगित्वात् आत्मविषयत्वात् च सा पूर्वदृष्ट्यपेक्षया उत्तमा, तावत्या
>>>>>>>>>> #द्वैतोपशान्त्यसम्भवाद्# द्वैतोपशान्त्यपेक्षया जघन्या इति मध्यमा इति
>>>>>>>>>> अर्थः।.....विवर्तदृष्टेरपि जीवैकत्व नानात्व विषयतया द्वैविध्यम् आह ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> //This implies that as per Sri MS,  all the prakriyAs lead to the
>>>>>>>>>> same Goal. There is no difference in the status of the sAdhaka who reaches
>>>>>>>>>> the Goal through whichever prakriyA. Your contention appears to imply that
>>>>>>>>>> the status is different depending upon whether SDV or DSV or AjAtivAda is
>>>>>>>>>> followed by the sAdhaka.//
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Whether it is pariNAma-vAda or vivarta-vAda (which includes SDV
>>>>>>>>>> and DSV), they are useful in so far as they sequentially take one to
>>>>>>>>>> antyA-drishTi.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> antyA-drishTi is apavAda-drishTi. However, to reach there, one
>>>>>>>>>> has to necessarily sequentially pass through SDV and DSV. Since, DSV is
>>>>>>>>>> just a step short to antyA-drishTi, it is the most superior. In
>>>>>>>>>> antyA-drishTi, there is apavAda, basically ajAtivAda.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My point is only this. Neither DSV nor SDV can take one to
>>>>>>>>>> Moksha. For they are within the vivarta-vAda which maintains the
>>>>>>>>>> prapancha-bhramatva.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is only the antyA-drishTi, the ajAtivAda which is the truth. I
>>>>>>>>>> would request to kindly peruse 2.82 to 2.85 TIkA. I cannot find any soft
>>>>>>>>>> copy. I have the Hindi translation and reproducing the Sanskrit here will
>>>>>>>>>> take time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Additional Commissioner of Income-tax,
>>>>>>>> Pune
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> sudhanshushekhar.wordpress.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>