[Advaita-l] ​Re: [advaitin] A talk on avidyA by Manjushree

[Michael Chandra Cohen]

JN Sir, pranam. I am sure there will be more coming but as for your Brbh
3.5.1 quote, the following sentence seems to inform your conclusion
adversely, the jnani knows one only without a second, without interior or
exterior ...

"We do not maintain the existence of things different from Brahman in the
state when the highest truth has been definitely known , as the Srutis say
, " One only without a second " , and " Without interior or exterior " ( II
. v . 19 ; III . viii . 8 ) . Nor do we deny the validity , for the
ignorant , of actions with their factors and results while the relative
world of name and form exists ."

On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 3:25 PM Michael Chandra Cohen <
michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've posted your response on Facebook. Let's see what response we get.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 2:16 PM Jaishankar Narayanan via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Dear  Michael Chandra Cohen ji,
>>
>> You ask - what is Mithya?
>>
>> Mithya / Asat / Anrtam - these are all ontological terms used by Advaitins
>> and Bhasyakara. For a definition see BG Bhashya 2.16
>> न असतः अविद्यमानस्य शीतोष्णादेः सकारणस्य न विद्यते नास्ति भावो भवनम्
>> अस्तिता ॥ न हि शीतोष्णादि सकारणं प्रमाणैर्निरूप्यमाणं वस्तुसद्भवति ।
>> विकारो
>> हि सः, विकारश्च व्यभिचरति । यथा घटादिसंस्थानं चक्षुषा निरूप्यमाणं
>> मृद्व्यतिरेकेणानुपलब्धेरसत् , तथा सर्वो विकारः कारणव्यतिरेकेणानुपलब्धेरसन्
>> । जन्मप्रध्वंसाभ्यां प्रागूर्ध्वं च अनुपलब्धेः कार्यस्य घटादेः
>> मृदादिकारणस्य च तत्कारणव्यतिरेकेणानुपलब्धेरसत्त्वम् ॥
>>
>> Also Taittiriya Bhasya 2.1
>> सत्यमिति यद्रूपेण यन्निश्चितं तद्रूपं न व्यभिचरति, तत्सत्यम् । यद्रूपेण
>> यन्निश्चितं तद्रूपं व्यभिचरति, तदनृतमित्युच्यते । अतो विकारोऽनृतम् , ‘
>> वाचारम्भणं विकारो नामधेयं मृत्तिकेत्येव सत्यम्’ (छा. उ. ६ । १ । ४) एवं
>> सदेव
>> सत्यमित्यवधारणात् ।
>>
>> To summarise - that which is a modification, an effect, available for
>> sense
>> perception, not separately available from its cause, has beginning (not
>> available before) and end (not available after), that which after being
>> ascertained in one form, changes from that - is mithya, asat , anrtam.
>>
>> Now the world is mithya, asat, anrtam and its cause avidya is also of the
>> same nature - mithya, asat, anrtam. It cannot be a totally non-existent
>> jnaana-abhaava. So Vedanta Sara is correct in identfying Maya / Avidya as
>> kinchit bhavarupa - as real and as existent as the mithya / asat world.
>> Obviously it has no existence from a Paaramaartika drishti / standpoint.
>> Does avidya as an upadhi not create dvaita? Shankara has already answered
>> this in Br. Up Bh 3.5.1
>> नामरूपोपाध्यस्तित्वे ‘एकमेवाद्वितीयम्’ (छा. उ. ६ । २ । १) ‘नेह नानास्ति
>> किञ्चन’ (बृ. उ. ४ । ४ । १९) इति श्रुतयो विरुध्येरन्निति चेत् — न,
>> सलिलफेनदृष्टान्तेन परिहृतत्वात् मृदादिदृष्टान्तैश्च ;
>>
>> The essence of my quotation from 3.5.1 bhashya is - The mithya vyavahaara
>> (worldly transactions) due to differentiation is there for those who
>> accept
>> things as different from brahman (ignorant) and for those who do not (the
>> jnaani). Now according to Swamiji if knowledge destroys vyakta-adhyaasa
>> (not just ajnaana) then how can he account for statements like these? How
>> does he even explain Jeevan-mukti?
>>
>> How can a non-existent thing be a pedagogical tool? It makes immense sense
>> to say moola-avidya is as real as the world appearance and use it as a
>> pedagogical tool (adhyaaropa) rather than proposing an abhaava. As the
>> world is negated, moola-avidya also is destroyed / negated along with it
>> as
>> mithya / anrtam / asat.
>>
>> Why ajnaana cannot be jnaana-abhaava has been discussed in Swaaraajya
>> Siddhi and in Samkshepashaareeraka. I may have to refer the books to get
>> the exact verses.
>>
>> with love and prayers,
>> Jaishankar
>>
>> Message: 8
>> > Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 07:25:49 -0500
>> > From: Michael Chandra Cohen <michaelchandra108 at gmail.com>
>> > To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
>> >         <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] [advaitin] A talk on avidyA by Manjushree
>> > Message-ID:
>> >         <CAAz9PvFjjhwR33SJzEhejMZbJbBnjDsO4-nf9-=
>> > xaKwSYMCZ8g at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>> >
>> > Namaste Jaishankara Narayan, thank you for your reflections in reply. I
>> > have taken the liberty of sharing your response on Facebook and will, in
>> > turn, share here worthy responses.
>> >
>> > To  your first point, what is mithya? Vedanta Sara is
>> > staunchly mulAvidyAvada. .The text lists 5 definitions of maya/avidya
>> all
>> > of which denote some kind of positive, bhavarupa, existent.
>> > To your second point, a) please translate Brbh 3.5.1. -- b) " Now the
>> above
>> > (pedagogical tool) applies exactly to moolavidya. " -- moola avidya is
>> an
>> > existent, Eshwara's Maya Shakti, a positive bhavarupa avidya and not
>> simply
>> > a teaching tool?
>> > To your third point, please be specific, how exactly and where has jnana
>> > abhava been dealt with?
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 1:02 AM H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> >
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