[Advaita-l] Only a Vedantin can express these words of wisdom

[V Subrahmanian]

While there are several accounts of the Dvaita (Madhva school) - Shaiva
Sthanika (Smartha) tussle for supremacy, often involving violence, forcible
dislodging of Shiva linga, other images, overpowering and occupying
institutions, even by killing, are there in the Tulunadu region of
Karnataka:

https://archive.org/search.php?query=Sthanika%20brahmins

one can read this here:
https://ia800205.us.archive.org/13/items/VaishnavismInVijayanagaraBASaletore_201603/Vaishnavism%20in%20Vijayanagara%2C%20BA%20Saletore.pdf

from page 191 onward till the end of the printed book to get a quick idea
of the issue.

regards
subbu

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 8:07 AM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Gopal ji
> Thanks for pointing out the need to differentiate between dvaita (proper
> noun) from (theistic) dualism (common noun,) - the former are peaceful
> while some of the latter are more proactive in imposing their beliefs
> violently on others - the cause of religiously inspired violence in the
> world.
>
> The pacifism of Indian
> dvaita practitioners is quite obvious, even the staunchest of whom,
> restrict their sparring to an intellectual level - at worst, some
> name-calling and bad-mouthing of opponents is par for the course. It is as
> if even the most dogmatic followers of various Indian dualistic worship
> traditions feel,
>  "it is really Krishna's call (or Shakti's call - the Bengali Shaakta
> Vaishnava rivalry comes to mind)  - to deal out punishment to those who
> don't worship him/her and instead worship some other 'demigod' etc. It's no
> doubt a blameworthy thing to worship demigods as Supreme, but it's none of
> my business to forcefully or violently impose my way on others (although i
> hold that my way of worship is the best and only correct way based on the
> Vedas) on others. At best i should debate with the rascals and call their
> bluff intellectually..haah". - this paper tiger intellectual violence is
> the maximum limit of religious conflict seen in India until recently.
>
>
> I don't know of any social or political problems created by even
> passionately theistic Indian dualism followers of various hues (both
> vaishnava and shaiva or shakta) for followers of other Indian dvaita
> adherents or advaitins.(Except for the freakish Kuresha incident of
> doubtful authenticity, claimed by the vishishtadvaitins, wherein a
> fanatical shaiva having a suitably awkward name is said to have violently
> victimized some Vaishnavas.) This peaceful history of Indian dualistic
> traditions is in sharp contrast to the non-Indian historical religions
> waging religious war killing millions of innocents.
>
> Can we conclude from the Indian experience of atleast a thousand years
> that, passionate and insistent adherence to a particular name and form for
> worship (and even to the point of holding that followers of other forms of
> worship will be sent off to naraka/hell and will be punished), by itself
> does not necessarily lead to any social and political violence?
>
> Besides the peaceful vedic vaiShnava and shaaktas etc., even the semi-Vedic
> Sikhs and non-Vedic Buddhists and Jainas show similar socially and
> politically peaceful traits over several 1000 years over countries all over
> Asia. In Indonesia and South East Asia, Vaidika and Buddhist traditions
> peacefully co-existed for over 1000 years. A common trait of all the
> so-called 'Dharma' traditions? So this cannot be attributed to any recent
> modern 'enlightened' attitude or even to Vedic origin.
>
> The only reason I can think of for religious violence under the umbrella of
> Islam and Christianity is to the specific theological injunctions (that
> gained traction and were amplified) that killing non-believers is
> meritorious (ghazi concept in Islam), looking at practitioners of other
> religion as "Satan-worshippers" rather than merely innocent worshippers who
> don't know better (this 'Satanization' of temple or nature worship has been
> in the past a license to convert or kill, as in South America, Africa, Goa
> etc).
>
> Because bad-mouthing each other due to sectarian differences is common to
> both the peaceful Dvaita traditions and the violent historical religions.
> So it does not have any actionable component.
>
> Om
> Raghav
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 12 Jan, 2020, 10:47 PM Gopal via Advaita-l, <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Shri Murthy,
> >
> > Namaskara. You have stated it well. That gave actual relief...
> >
> >  The subtility in Mahaswami's vachana about passionate adherence to the
> > duality of name and form (a generic noun) as a progenitor of violence
> > appears to be lost when the word Dvaita (a proper noun) is used.  In
> > general, one can see that passionate adherence of anything could be
> equally
> > dogmatic and this gives rise to conflicts and quarrels... this is true
> even
> > in the realms of religion and science.
> >
> > As a disclaimer, on a lighter vein, as someone born in dvaita
> sampradaya, I
> > have not seen violent tendency against people of advaita or
> vishistadvaita
> > sampradayas amongst my kith, kin and tribal strangers all these
> decades...
> > Most probably those aasura sampatthi dvaitins and vishistaadvaitins
> > (paraphrasing Shri Krishna) have also acquired ability to be invisible...
> >
> > ..gopal gopinath
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 1:22 AM Venkatesh Murthy via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Namaste
> > >
> > > Yes Dvaita is fanatic but they are also followers of Dharma and Karmas
> > like
> > > Advaitis. There are small differences only  in Karmas like Upanayana,
> > > Sandhyavandana and so on between Advaitis, Dvaitis and Visistadvaitis.
> > They
> > > are also vegetarians. They are fanatic at thought level but in conduct
> > they
> > > are not violent like Mlecchas.
> > >
> > > A person following Sanatana Dharma and performing the Karmas of Dharma
> > > cannot be violent and bloodthirsty.
> > >
> > > This is the reason for why they cannot be violent like Islam and
> > > Christians.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 9:14 AM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <
> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Namaste Subbu ji
> > > >
> > > > That is indeed well-put. Advaita Vedanta fosters accommodating all
> > human
> > > > beings, even while objectively recognising the limitations in various
> > > > theologies and belief systems.
> > > >
> > > > What is the reason for the following?
> > > >
> > > > The Indian dualism (like Sri Madhva's theology) is no less fanatical
> > and
> > > > theologically obsessed as non-Indian origin dualistic systems like
> > Islam
> > > > and Christianity. Yet the Indian dvaita systems (thankfully) do not
> > have
> > > a
> > > > bloody record of violence and persecution of fellow human beings
> purely
> > > due
> > > > to their religious beliefs, the way bloodthirsty jihads and crusades
> > have
> > > > been the norm in Islam and Christianity? What is the cause of this
> > almost
> > > > bovine pacifism of Indian dualism in contrast to the carnivorous
> > appetite
> > > > of the predatory religions - although both these types are
> > intellectually
> > > > strongly sectarian?
> > > >
> > > > Om
> > > > Raghav
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 10 Jan, 2020, 8:17 AM V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l, <
> > > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "All religious conflicts and quarrels arise because a devotee is
> > unable
> > > > to
> > > > > disassociate his conception of God from a particular name and
> form."
> > > > >
> > > > > - Jagadguru Sri Chandrashekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal
> > > > >
> > > > > (Source: Thought of the Day - Sringeri Vidya Bharati Foundation,
> USA)
> > > > >
> > > > > The wisdom in the above message encapsulates the entire scriptural
> > lore
> > > > of
> > > > > the Vaidika Sanatana Dharma.  None other than a Vedantin can grasp
> > this
> > > > and
> > > > > express it in such a way. Theological/sectarian schools can never
> aim
> > > to
> > > > > reach these sublime heights of the Vedantin.  Their lot is destined
> > to
> > > > > wallow in bigotry. We see only Advaita Acharyas express such
> thoughts
> > > > that
> > > > > can never be comprehended by those who do not belong to the path of
> > the
> > > > > Vedanta.
> > > > >
> > > > > Om Tat Sat
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> > >
> > > --
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > -Venkatesh
> > > _______________________________________________
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