[Advaita-l] Sleep, tamas and brahman

[Kalyan]

// That is not the impression that
 anyone, any translator or commentator has got from the
 Upanishad.  In case you have arrived at such a conclusion,
 well, that is not substantiated in the least by the
 Upanishad. There is everything in the mantras in that
 section to clearly show that it is an analogy.//


Alright. We will then have to disagree here and leave it at that. I would only say one thing. Members are free to read BU 4.3 and commentary and then they can draw their own conclusions. In fact, as Sri Bhaskarji pointed out, the statement atra veda avedah is made with respect to deep sleep. On a different Shankara does not interpret this to mean that the Vedas are sublated.


 //Could you show the exact
 passage? //

BU 4.3.31.



--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/30/18, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Sleep, tamas and brahman
 To: "Kalyan" <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>
 Cc: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 Date: Monday, April 30, 2018, 5:25 PM
 
 
 
 On Mon,
 Apr 30, 2018 at 4:36 PM, Kalyan <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>
 wrote:
 // The Upanishad only
 gives deep sleep
 
  as an analogy to the liberated state //
 
 
 
 I would disagree here. The upanishad literally equates deep
 sleep to the highest state. It is not a mere analogy.
 
 That is not the impression that
 anyone, any translator or commentator has got from the
 Upanishad.  In case you have arrived at such a conclusion,
 well, that is not substantiated in the least by the
 Upanishad. There is everything in the mantras in that
 section to clearly show that it is an analogy.    
 
 
 
 
 
 //If the latter were meant by
 
  the shruti, everyone
 will, with zero effort, become
 
  liberated by just going to sleep.//
 
 
 
 
 
 This is exactly what the upanishad suggests. Everyone gets
 liberated in deep sleep, without any effort.
 
 This is again an offshoot of the
 earlier misunderstanding of the
 Upanishad.  
 
 
 
 
 //This is because in sleep there is no
 
  room for sattva
 (knowledge/deliberation/ sadhana) and
 
  activity, karma, rajas. //
 
 
 
 
 
 Ok. But I feel that there is a contradiction in equating
 deep sleep to tamas and highest state respectively.
 
 Again, a lot of things have been
 missed.  Nowhere does the Upanishad 'equate' sleep
 with the liberated state.  If such were the case, then
 sleep would have been taught as a substitute for
 liberation.  Nowhere such a teaching is given out. 
   
 
 
 
 
 //Shankara has pointed out that
 
  in sleep the jiva
 'merges' in saguna brahman and not
 
  the nirguna brahman.//
 
 
 
 
 
 At least in the brihadaranyaka, it is mentioned that the
 individual is embraced by the supreme Self (becomes one with
 supreme Self), aka nirguNa brahman, in deep sleep. 
 
 This misconception arises because of
 not reading / understanding the mantras /
 bhashya.  
 
 
 
 
 //If the latter, he says, the jiva will
 
  not emerge from sleep as that will be liberation: //
 
 
 
 
 
 Shankara infact asks a similar question but bypasses it in
 the brihadaranyaka.
 
 Could you show the exact
 passage? 
 
 
 
 
 On a related note, the brihadaranyaka and mandukya seem to
 be giving different teachings. For the former, deep sleep is
 as good as nirguNa brahman. For the latter, there is a
 fourth state turiya above deep sleep, which is nirguNa
 brahman.
 
 In fact Shankara makes a statement
 showing the similarity between the two Upanishads:  In his
 introduction to the third brahmana of the fourth chapter he
 says:
 
 
 अत्र
 च
 जाग्रत्स्वप्नसुषुप्ततुरीयाण्युपन्यस्तानि
 अन्यप्रसङ्गेन — इन्धः,
 प्रविविक्ताहारतरः,
 सर्वे प्राणाः, स एष
 नेति नेतीति । 
 
 Swami
 Madhavananda:  ·Here, in a different connection,(1) the
 states of wakefulness, dream, profound sleep and
 transcendence have been introduced in the words,
 'Indha,' 'Has finer food,' 'The
 different vital forces,' and 'This self is That
 which has been described as "Not this, not this,"
 ' 
 He adds a
 footnote: 1. To show the order of gradual
 emancipation.
 Thus,
 the two Upanishads teach the highest through the same
 methodology; only that the Brihadaranyaka gives explicit
 examples like a fish traversing from bank to bank, a couple
 in love, a bird returning to its abode, etc. which are not
 there in the Mandukya. In both the Upanishads the
 'gradual' emanicipation is shown through the three
 states to the transcendental. 
 regards
 
 ------------------------------ --------------
 
 On Mon, 4/30/18, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
 wrote:
 
 
 
  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Sleep, tamas and brahman
 
  To: "Kalyan" <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>,
 "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-
 vedanta.org>
 
  Date: Monday, April 30, 2018, 1:57 AM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  On Sat,
 
  Apr 28, 2018 at 7:34 PM, Kalyan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-
 vedanta.org>
 
  wrote:
 
  Namaste
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
  The brihadaranyaka upanishad equates deep sleep with
 the
 
  highest state of brahman. 
 
 
 
  The Upanishad
 only gives deep sleep
 
  as an analogy to the liberated state because there is
 no
 
  experienceable duality, no identities of jivas as so and
 so,
 
  no misery, there is explicit peace and hence the state
 is
 
  called samprasaada.  The comparison is only
 instructional,
 
  to enable the aspirant to get an idea of the liberated
 
  state.  Vidyaranya says in the Panchadashi, on a
 different
 
  context, the negation/sublation of jagat means only the
 firm
 
  conviction that it is mithya and not its disappearance
 from
 
  one's vision/experience.  If the latter were meant
 by
 
  the shruti, everyone will, with zero effort, become
 
  liberated by just going to sleep.     
 
  
 
 
 
  Why is sleep then, associated with tamas in the
 bhagavad
 
  gita?
 
 
 
  This is because
 in sleep there is no
 
  room for sattva (knowledge/deliberation/ sadhana) and
 
  activity, karma, rajas.  In fact the 6th chapter of
 the
 
  Gita prescribes moderate sleep and moderate waking for
 the
 
  Yogi.  This is because, without the required quantum
 of
 
  sleep, even as modern physicians, etc. agree, one
 cannot
 
  pursue sadhana properly. The body needs a certain amount
 of
 
  sleep.  The cosmic correspondence with individual sleep
 is
 
  pralaya. This is a must since what has been created has
 to
 
  come to a resolution, dissolution, so as to enable the
 next
 
  cyclical creation.  That is why pralaya is also a
 tamasic
 
  function of Brahman.  
 
 
 
 
 
  Second question -
 vide the brihadaranyaka, can we say that
 
  sleeping is a sAdhana in itself?
 
 
 
  No. Sleep is not
 a sadhana in
 
  itself. As shown above, sleep, in moderate amount, is
 
  required for conscious sadhana; therefore sadhana is a
 
  conscious, wakeful activity. Shankara has pointed out
 that
 
  in sleep the jiva 'merges' in saguna brahman and
 not
 
  the nirguna brahman. If the latter, he says, the jiva
 will
 
  not emerge from sleep as that will be liberation: yad
 gatvaa
 
  na nivartante ...of the 15th chapter of the Gita. So too,
 in
 
  pralaya the jivas/bhutas merge in the saguna brahman,
 only
 
  to emerge later in srishti.  
 
  regardssubbu
 
 
 
 
 
  Regards
 
 
 
  Kalyan
 
 
 
  ______________________________ _________________
 
 
 
  Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.
 
  org/archives/advaita-l/
 
 
 
  http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.
 
  culture.religion.advaita
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  To unsubscribe or change your options:
 
 
 
  https://lists.advaita-vedanta.
 
  org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  For assistance, contact:
 
 
 
  listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org