[Advaita-l] Ramana Maharshi - Advaitin or Neo Advaitin?
bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com
Mon Sep 26 06:52:57 CDT 2016
praNAms Sri LalitAlAlita prabhuji
At the outset, I have noticed that somany prabhuji-s addressed you as ‘swamiji’, kindly pardon me I did not know that you are ‘swamiji’ (monk) of some order. Kindly forgive me if I am knowingly or unknowingly talked to you with leniency.
> Here jnana means Atmaikatva jnana , ekatva jnana as enshrined in Upanishads and as propagated by Advaita vedAnta. And the means to achieve / realize it, is, sharvaNAdi direct sAdhana after getting the sufficient purity (chitta shuddhi) through sAdhana chatushtaya.
Whatever you are talking is not direct means of GYAna.
Ø shravaNa, manana and nidhidhyAsana of vedAdanta vAkya are direct means for liberation says shankara, that is what I am saying prabhuji.
Let it be clear that, GYAna is generated by pramANa-s, not your sadhana-chatuShTaya.
We are talking to pramANa-s here.
Ø Yes, I too talking about that pramANa only and sAdhana using that shAstra pramANa. Hope I am clear here.
> Can there be a universal signs of the jnAni??
If there would not be one, then the shruti - तद्विज्ञानार्थं स गुरुमेवाभिगच्छेत्समित्पाणिश्श्रोत्रियं ब्रह्मनिष्ठम् must be useless. Since there are no signs of GYAnI and jIvanmukta-s. And, so all other portions of shAstra-s which talk of laxaNa of sthitapraGYA, guNAtIta, brAhmaNa, bhagavadbhakta, etc.
So, there must be some sign of GYAna.
Ø Yes, sthita prajna lakshaNa is there in geeta to know who is sthita prajna…but how can one know whether one is sthita prajna, shrOtreeya, brahmanishTa and approach him with samit in his hand?? Ofcourse, nobody or no jnAni would announce himself that he is that nishTa it is only shraddhA of that shishya would help his to consider one as jnAni or otherwise. As you know, we revere our Advaita Acharya-s as brahma vAdins whereas for dvaitins the same Acharya-s are mAyAvAdins and same way for us dvaita Acharya-s are not Atmaikatva vAdins and dualists not paramArtha jnAni-s. Though same degree of tranquility can be witnessed in Acharya-s from different schools of thought. So, again question remains who is shrOtreeya, brahmanishTa guru one can approach with samit to know the brahman??
Can it be possible to ascertain whether one is brahma jnAni or otherwise through his external appearance and behavior that too when prArabdha and avidyA lesha having the strong hold on bhautika shareera of this jnAni??
Once you accept that there are some signs of GYAna and jIvanmukti, then owing to these mentioned factors, viz.prArabdha, vAsanA, etc., it is easy to say that those signs of GYAna will fade and evaporate in some cases. And, that is sign of degree of stability of GYAna.
In case that's too low, there is no need to treat the person as GYAnI since GYAna is useless in that case, even for him.
Ø That is very interesting prabhuji, I know that there is a statement that vijnAya prajnAm kurveeta…But does it mean that the jnana that jnAni obtains is temporary and fluctuating and one has to maintain its intensity through further sAdhana / prayatna?? If that is the case, the brahma jnana too becomes just like any other objective knowledge and repetition (Avrutti) of that jnana or memorizing of that jnana is required just to ensure that this jnana should not fade away over a period of time?? Please clarify.
Since shAstra-s are not made for GYAnI-s, because they are kRtakRtya, so I never expect that he may need any signs for any purpose.
It is for the sake of vyavahAra(of a-GYAnI-s) that some signs are needed.
Ø Agreed prabhuji.
Here I see a trend that implies that people have only two discrete divisions in mind - GYAnI and aGYAnI. And, GYAnI doesn't see anything.
Now, that's absurd.
Ø Though there is no gradations in jnana (paramArtha jnana) jnAni-s have different grades like vara, vareeya, varishTa etc. I have seen this in JMV. But again does it not prove that jnAni-s like ramaNa etc. cannot be identifiable with exact signs of jnAni through their external appearance and attitude?? And that is what the crux of this thread.
There are more stages of GYAna, and there is something called jIvanmukti. Even jIvanmukta-s and GYAnI-s who are possessing body, either by prArabdha or by any other means, are subject to vyavhAra. Even there samAdhI is a vyvahAra. Whatever a GYAnI does to stabilise his GYAna, is also vyavahAra. All other practices, as bhixA-yATana, pUjA, japa, adhyayana, etc. are vyavahAra.
If you don't accept that, you are in some other plane of thinking where evidence and logic don't reach.
Ø How can I deny it prabhuji?? But this vyavahAra with reality in duality will not be there in jnAni and jnAnAvasthA is not vyavahArAteeta peculiar state it is only ‘vyavahAra bAdhita’ state where katrutva and bhOktrutva of the jnAni are conspicuous by its absence.
> Yes, but establishing this is indeed purely subjective and may vary to one individual to another or one follower to another.
No, establishing anything by pramANa-s is not subjective. It's universal. pramANa-s don't change behaviour according to person. It's the fault of person which makes things appear different.
Ø I am not able to follow this line of clarification from you prabhuji especially when your goodself acknowledging the gradations in jnAni-s and jnana.
Since GYAna is svasaMvedya, even other GYAnI can't look inside head of other one. So, it is difficult to accept that chandrashekharendra-sarasvatI knew anything which was going inside ramaNa's head.
Ø Yes, that is why I said jnana of the particular jnAni is his hrudaya spandana and acknowledging that in any particular person is subjective decision of his/her followers. We can see that difference of opinion in this list itself, is it not??? For some of us, ramaNa was the sahaja brahma nishTa jnani and to some others, he was not since his jnana has not been validated by shAstra pramANa and his jnana has not been originated through shruti vAkya shravaNAdi sAdhana.
You know them. They are amAnitva, etc. as said by bhagavAn, and others.
Ø Yes, but amAnitvAdi guNa-s were not there in ramaNa, is the question that we need to answer to consider him as jnAni or otherwise.
That shock must be based on pramANa. Otherwise, it is speculation and deluding oneself.
Ø In the brahma jignAsa (unlike dharma jignAsa) shAstra is not the sole pramANa anubhavAdhyascha too valid pramANa says shankara…If the anubhava of ‘deathlessness’ of Atman to ramaNa is in line with shruti pramANa can we discard it just it is not the result of shruti vAkya janita or pramANa janita jnana prabhuji ??
sandhyA-mantra-s are not direct means of knowledge, since they are useful for karma. So, I'm not considering them.
Ø I am really surprised that there is no jnana pradhAna vAkya-s / mantra-s in sandhyA mantra-s and they are useful for only karma. Or am I missing something here prabhuji??
Kindly pardon me prabhuji if I am stretching this discussion beyond its limits and taking the liberty to talk/discuss vedAnta with traditional Acharya-s like your goodself. I know purely loukikA-s like me donot have any adhikAra to do brahma jignAsa without obtaining the purity through sAdhana chatushtaya. But still tempted sometimes.
My humble prostrations to you.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
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