[Advaita-l] Shruti prAmANya and jnAna
agnimile at gmail.com
Tue Oct 4 14:32:04 CDT 2016
Thanks for sharing this excerpt from AchArya's book.
"Consider the case of a person who has approached a Guru and carried out
intense spiritual discipline in an earlier birth but failed to get the
realization of the Truth before passing away. Such a person would easily
get knowledge in his next birth. In exceptional cases, he may not even
require a Guru."
The above section is particularly relevant to the other thread. I had tried
to present the same idea there.
On 4 Oct 2016 6:41 p.m., "V Subrahmanian" <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 10:33 PM, Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> Namaste Raghav ji,
>> Thanks for that very clear email.
>> "In my present state of understanding, that svataHprAmAnyam of
>> shabdapramANa is sufficient for akhanDAkAra vRtti in the case of the
>> uttamAdhikArI, appears reasonable."
> There is a story about Janaka's enlightenment. I shall quote from the
> book 'Divine Discourses' - a compilation, in translation, of the
> benedictory addresses of Jagadguru Sri Abhinava Vidyatirtha Mahaswaminaḥ of
> Sringeri. (Published by Sri Vidyatirtha Foundation, Chennai).
> This excerpt is from the chapter 'Greatness of Shankara's life and
> Teachings.' - p.179-80:
> तद्विज्ञानार्थं स गुरुमेवाभिगच्छेत् समित्पाणिः श्रोत्रियं ब्रह्मनिष्ठम् ।
> - मुण्डकोपनिषत् १-२-१२
> The seeker of knowledge of the Truth has necessarily to approach, with
> reverence, a Guru who is a knower of the scriptures and is established in
> If a man tries to know the Truth on his own by simply reading books, he
> will not be successful. Consider the case of a person who has approached a
> Guru and carried out intense spiritual discipline in an earlier birth but
> failed to get the realization of the Truth before passing away. Such a
> person would easily get knowledge in his next birth. In exceptional cases,
> he may not even require a Guru. In the Upashānti Prakaranam of the Yoga
> Vāsiṣṭham there is a story relating to how King Janaka of Videha obtained
> knowledge without formal instruction from a Guru. Janaka was walking alone
> in a grove near his palace, when he heard a song sung by several Siddhas.
> The song propounded the Truth. For instance, one of the verses that he
> heard was:
> द्रष्ट्रुदर्शनदृश्यानि त्यक्त्वा वासनया सह
> दर्शनप्रथमाभासमात्मानं समुपास्महे ||
> Renouncing completely the ‘perceiver-perceiving-perceived’
> along with the Vaasanaa, we resort to the ‘Self’,
> which is the root consciousness beyond objectification.
> On hearing the song, he automatically and straightaway became enlightened.
> In the Veda, we hear of Vāmadeva who obtained the realization of the Truth
> even when he was lying in his mother's womb.
> *[See Siddha gita here: **http://morebhagavadgeetas.blogspot.in/2012/08/siddha-geetaa.html
> <http://morebhagavadgeetas.blogspot.in/2012/08/siddha-geetaa.html> ]*
> From the above we come to know that the vākya that triggers the vṛtti need
> not be directly from the Shruti; any sentence that conveys the purport
> thereof is sufficient. Also, the sentence need not be in any particular
> language like Sanskrit; it could be any other language that is capable of
> conveying the meaning to the person involved. It need not be a vocative one
> heard from 'outside'; it could be one that arises from inside as well. All
> that is required is that it should be capable of triggering the vṛtti.
> Dakṣināmūrti's mere silence with the chinmudrā is another example.
>> I agree - this was pretty much the sum of my argument earlier. I however,
>> did not introduce the condition of adhikAri bheda because the focus of the
>> argument was on the vastu tantratva of jnAna.
>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <
>> raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Namaste Venkatraghavan ji
>> > On 04-Oct-2016 7:08 pm, "Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l" <
>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Namaste Praveenji,
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Praveen R. Bhat <
>> bhatpraveen at gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > If the pramAta, pramANa and prameya, are appropriately aligned,
>> > knowledge
>> > > >> is automatically generated. Now, the pramAta may refuse to accept
>> > > >> generated knowledge as pramA, or take efforts to preserve the
>> > knowledge
>> > > >> generated; however, the capacity of the pramANa to generate the
>> > > >> vritti is a given.
>> > > >>
>> > > >
>> > > > The answer, IMO, lies in the definition of pramAtR/ प्रमाता, else
>> > > > would arise even without साधनचातुष्टयसम्पत्ति। One of the
>> > qualifications is
>> > > > श्रद्धा, which although defined by तत्त्वबोध as गुरुवेदान्तवाक्येषु
>> > > > विश्वासः, its not just a belief. It has to grow into
>> > For
>> > > > श्रवण to take place, there has to be तात्पर्यनिर्णय। Without that,
>> > ज्ञान
>> > > > cannot arise.
>> > > >
>> > > > Yes, unless the pramAta has the qualifications for knowledge, pramA
>> > will
>> > > not arise - some jnAna (even bhrama may arise). shruti prAmANya-buddhi
>> > must
>> > > also definitely be there. However, even that prAmANya-buddhi is
>> based on
>> > > certain basic axioms that need to be accepted for that
>> prAmANya-buddhi to
>> > > arise. And I believe it is to cultivate a belief in these axioms that
>> > > shraddhA is talked about.
>> > >
>> > > And even if some form of ज्ञानवृत्ति is formed, it is not अखण्ड।
>> > > > as you say the person may reject it perhaps as भ्रम। At most it may
>> > become
>> > > > some kind of impression for स्मृति।
>> > > >
>> > > > I have to think about why you say the jnAna vritti is not akhaNda.
>> > > mull over it.
>> > >
>> > It may be of interest that the alignment or conformity of the vRtti
>> > generated in the mind when mahAvAkya is heard (with prAmAnya buddhi),
>> > vis-a-vis the shruti's (Guru's) true intention, can vary between
>> > 1. Virochana's bhrama GYAna (although he had prAmAnya buddhi in the
>> > preceptor ).
>> > 2. injunction to meditate upAsitavyam -vRtti (the mImAmsaka-s had
>> > prAmANya buddhi in veda but read into the mahAvAkya an injunction to
>> > meditate 'ahambrahmAsmi iti upAsIta' )
>> > 3. the true import of the mahAvAkya viz., grasped by akhanDAkAra vRtti.
>> > Well maybe Virochana was not exactly taught the mahAvAkya, but i think
>> > get the general idea.
>> > The degree of antahkaraNashuddhi, if its of a high order, the resistance
>> > to owning up that 'aham brahmAsmi' is almost absent.
>> > Why should the akhanDAkAra vRtti not arise? Because the shruti's true
>> > intention is aikyArtha alone. So there is no pramANa doSha. That leaves
>> > only the pramatR antaHkaraNa as having the obstacles to artha sphuraNa.
>> > can ask this question and work backwards and see that resistive
>> > like arthasya asambhAvanA will be not strongly felt if there is a
>> > antaHkaraNa which is not strongly identified with the vyaShTi upAdhi.
>> > in, how can i, a humbLe simbLe person, be brahman?!)
>> > And if there is no pre-existing theological religious baggage in the
>> > then ideas such as 'shruti says something else somewhere else or some
>> > has said something theological which i believe about God' etc will
>> > not to be there in a fresh mind and so shrutyanekatA will not be there,
>> > temporarily at least. And same goes for dehAtmavAsana and other
>> > I agree that a person need not know all about the process of knowledge
>> > how phalavyApti is not there etc., to get the appropriate vRtti.
>> > In sum, if a kSheeNakalmaSha student is exposed to mahAvAkya, there are
>> > reasons why the akhaNDAkAra vRtti can't arise. Whether the pramA
>> > by the vRtti will survive the further experiences and vicAra based on
>> > pramANa-s is another question. Perhaps as Sri LalitAlAlitaH ji (nearly)
>> > quoted, the one who respects his experience will not fall. (I have
>> > modified it).
>> > Actually this entire aspect was brought up by him when he said
>> > svataHprAmANyam will have to be backed up by yukti etc.
>> > In my present state of understanding, that svataHprAmAnyam of
>> > shabdapramANa is sufficient for akhanDAkAra vRtti in the case of the
>> > uttamAdhikArI, appears reasonable. The yukti and further shravaNam etc
>> > only required to protect the vRtti-janita pramA after it has arisen.
>> > Otherwise the one who does not respect his experience falls... seems
>> > Om
>> > Raghav
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