[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Why only jagat is mithya and jeeva is brahman !!??
bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com
Tue Mar 29 07:14:20 CDT 2016
praNAms Sri Venkatraghavan prabhuji
1) shAstram tu antyam pramANam says AchArya. He says that no pramANa, pramEya, pramAtr bhedA is possible in Brahman.
Ø Yes, prabhuji I agree, neha nAnAsti kiMchana declares shruti.
2) jnAni loses his pramANA status, perception loses its pramANA status and jagat loses its pramEya status after the onset of jnAna. That is how brahmaivedam amrutam purastAt, should be understood.
> Yes, jnAni loses his pramAtru status so the corresponding pramANa, prameya, prama etc. But this does not mean jnAni’s body itself would vanish in thin air alongwith jagat since his shareerAdhi upAdhi-s are mithyA. What is mithyA or avidyA kalpita here is pramAtrutva, bhOktrutva, katrutva of jnAni not jnAni himself. If the jnAni himself is avidyA kalpita, if the jagat what he see itself is avidyAkalpita, after the dawn of jnana in one jnAni this world would have not been available for us alongwith him. That is not the case here, despite passing away of jnAni-s over the centuries we are still perceiving this jagat !! So, what does this mean?? Jagat itself is not mithyA, perception that one has on jagat is mithyA due to avidyA since excluding himself thinking that he is pramAtru, bhOktru, jnAtru, kartru etc. ajnAni gives an independent existence to jagat and for him jagat is asarvaM, abrahmam etc. But for the jnAni jagat is in its kAryAkArarUpa brahman only because he knows the shruti siddhAnta that brahman is the ONLY abhinna nimittOpadAna kAraNa for this kAryAkAra jagat.
2) Even in vyavahAra, the adhishThAna of nAma rUpa can never be available for perception, by your own logic.
> It is not my logic, it is in everyone’s anubhava ☺ nAma rUpAtmaka vikAra jagat is pratyaksha pramANa gOchara whereas adhishtAnaM of this jagat, i.e. brahman is apratyaksha.
How is the anadhigatatvam of shruti preserved if perception reveals Brahman as adhishThAnam?
Ø By realizing the kAraNa svarUpa in seen nAma, rUpa kAryAkAra and realizing the shruti pratipAdita siddhAnta that brahman is the upAdAna kAraNa for this perceived jagat. In pratyaksha you would still see the pot (vikAra) but your drushti would always be on the ‘clay’ not on the vikAra of clay. And this is what shankara clarifies in sUtra bhAshya, (quoted earlier ) : kAryAkArOpi kAraNasya Atma bhUta eva and there exists nothing that can be labelled as ‘mithyA’ / asatyA : sata eva dvaitabhedena anyathAgruhyamANatvAnnAsatvaM kasyachit kvachit.
If it did, one doesn't need shruti at all.
Ø The pramANa of shruti required to get the pramANAntara jnana of pratyaksha pramANa i.e. adhishtAna vastu of pratyaksha gOchara nAma rUpa vyAkruta jagat. Shruti promptly pointing its finger towards this jagat and clarifying for this jagat only brahman is the antaryAmi as well as upAdAna.
So one has to conclude that what is available for perception is only the mithyA component of jagat, never it's adhishThAna.
Ø I don’t know how you have come to this conclusion from your observation!! OTOH bhAshyakAra clarifies : na tu paramArthataH AtmavyatirekeNa asti kiMchit and shruti declares sarvaM khalvidaM brahma, tajjalaM iti shAnta upAseeta, idaM sarvaM yadayamAtma etc.
3) Which brings me to the 3rd point. Considering perception of nAma rUpa as *perception* is valid only in vyavahAra - ie so long as they are not understood as mithyA.
Ø Do you mean to say jnAni who has realized his svarUpa would not perceive the jagat at all!!?? Or his perception of jagat is mithyA?? Again what would be the perception of jnAni after realizing the svarUpa?? In bhAshyakAra’s own words : pUrvaM avidyayA asarva Aseet punaH vidyayA avidyApanaye sarvO bhavati. And further bhAshyakAra clarifies, yattu sarvAtmabhAvAt arvAk vAlAgramAtramapi anyatvena drushyate nAhamasmeeti tadavasthA avidyA. Is it clear prabhuji, jnAni’s realization is not that I am brahma and this jagat is mithyA and I would continue to see the ‘mithyA’ jagat, for him this jagat in its sadrUpa satyameva na anrutaM. That which was asarvaM for him prior to jnana would become ‘sarvaM’ and that ‘sarvaM’ is brahmamayaM only not mithyA. And this is called jnAni’s bhUma drushti, samyak drushti, sarvAtmabhAva.
4) Once nAma rUpa is understood as mithyA, no pramA can be generated for a mithyA vastu. The very definition of pramA is abAdhitArtha vastu vishayaka jnAnam pramA. So if nAma rUpa is sublated, you cannot call it's jnAnam pramA, and you cannot call the means of generating that jnAnam pramANA.
Ø Pls. see above, no place for mithyA in paramArtha sarvAtmabhAva.
So by 2 (anadhigatatvam), adhishThAna cannot be perceived, and by 3, nAma rUpa perception is not perception at all.
By 1, AchArya himself relegates all pramANA prameya pramAtr vyavahAra only until the generation of brahma jnAnam.
Ø To the best of my ability I have shared my understanding on these points prabhuji. You are welcome to disagree with it.
With this I am going to stop and let you consider whatever you have read - over 100 emails have been exchanged on the subject. If after reading all of them you still feel your position is justified, I'm not sure there is much further to say. All the best.
Ø Thanks for your participation & spending your time in this discussion prabhuji.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
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