[Advaita-l] avidya is Agantuka

Venkatraghavan S agnimile at gmail.com
Thu Jan 14 10:04:42 CST 2016

Namaste Sri Chandramouliji,

Your points are well taken. They are very novel arguments, and I enjoyed
our discussion.

I am happy that there are reasons that can explain the आगन्तुकं of both
aspects of अविद्या, so Sri Ravi Kiran's query is answered as far as I am

At this stage, as I have nothing new to add, I will recuse myself.

On 14 Jan 2016 13:04, "H S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sri Venkatrghavan Ji,
>  Sri Subrahmanian Ji has clarified that विक्षेप is what is meant in his
> post. I will continue with the justification for my stand ( quote from a
> previous post )  <<  This is the अभिव्यक्त अविद्या which is अनर्थहेतु because
> this ignorance of one's own true nature is the fundamental cause of all
> samsara >>.
>  In the illustration of the rope-serpent, which is the अनर्थहेतु ??
> Rope-serpent or the ignorance of rope ?? Rope-serpent  is the अनर्थ and
> ignorance of the rope is the अनर्थहेतु. Why ?? Because the अनर्थ of
> rope-serpent can be removed only by the removal of its cause ( अनर्थहेतु
> ) which is ignorance of the rope. Just because rope-serpent is manifest and
> causes fear etc directly, it is not termed अनर्थहेतु. Same is the case
> with what is under discussion. 'tattva apratibodha' (तत्वअप्रतिबोध
> ignorance of the True Nature of the Self, same as आवरण an aspect of
> अविद्या)   being the cause for the anyathā grahaṇa (अन्यथाग्रहण or
> विक्षेप another aspect of अविद्या)  of samsara is the अनर्थहेतु , although
> samsara is directly manifest.
> Now we consider the manifestation aspect of आवरण. Clearly the आवरण aspect
> is not discernible , even though present , at the time of विक्षेप.
> Ignorance of the rope is not known ( manifest )  at the time of perception
> of the rope-snake even though it is present and is the cause for the
> perception of the rope-snake. Similar is the case with the विक्षेप of
> samsara also. आवरण aspect of अविद्या also is present during विक्षेप but
> not discerned. In the case of the rope-snake, rope is perceived later and
> the cause for the appearance of the rope-snake is determined to be the
> ignorance of the rope. What about samsara. Atman is not readily available
> for perception like the rope. So how to conclude samsara is विक्षेप and
> not real. More so because such a conclusion flies in the face of other
> pramanas to the contrary. In the absence of any reasonable pramana, such a
> conclusion becomes at best a postulate, just like any other innumerable
> postulates about Creation/God/Jiva. Backing of the Shruti is no doubt
> available, but it is a feature of Advaita Sidhanta that the conclusions
> arrived at in accordance with the Shruti are such that they cannot be
> contradicted by logic or anubhava. सुषुप्ति anubhava is the ONLY pramana
> for bringingout the आवरण aspect of the Atman while the other two states (
> स्वप्न and जाग्रत्) bringout the विक्षेप aspect. That is why so much
> prominence is given to सुषुप्ति in BU Bhashya, a point highlighted by Sri
> Sadananda Ji also in his recent post in this thread. At this stage I just
> copy from my earlier post for the sake of completeness.
> <<  It is in this state of सुषुप्ति that the Jiva is directly in
> association solely with the Atman, without any distraction in the form of
> diversity of Creation ( विक्षेप ) , but is still unable to realize its
> identity with the Atman, the cause being आवरण ( ignorance of one's own
> true nature ) caused by अविद्या. This is the अभिव्यक्त अविद्या which is
> अनर्थहेतु because this ignorance of one's own true nature is the
> fundamental cause of all samsara. This is predominantly noticeable only
> during सुषुप्ति. In the other two states it is camouflaged by the
> distraction caused by the diversity of Creation ( विक्षेप caused by the
> same अविद्या ). This I believe is how the statement of Sri Anandagiri
> Acharya has to be understood.>>.
> Regards
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 4:41 PM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 3:38 PM, H S Chandramouli <
>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sri Venkatraghavan Ji,
>>> I am quoting below from the latest post by Sri Subrahmanian Ji
>>> << In the above bhaṣyam we can see that the āvaraṇa has been said to be
>>> of the nature of 'tattva apratibodha', that is, not-knowing of the
>>> Truth, which is the seed. For what? For the anyathā grahaṇa, which is
>>> the effect, the
>>> sprout of the seed: vikṣepa. This is present in the two states jāgrat and
>>> svapna. The 'seed' is present in all states as the fundamental ignorance.
>>> This is what is meant by 'agantuka' in the current discussion, while the
>>> 'seed' is admitted to be anādi and present in all states, through all
>>> janmas. till one becomes enlightened, which is what the above verse
>>> finally says .>>.
>>> I am not clear what is referred to by the statement << This is what is
>>> meant by 'agantuka' in the current discussion >>. Which is meant by
>>> agantuka – seed ('tattva apratibodha' ) or vikshepa ??  I am not sure. If
>>> seed is meant along with its effect of आवरण ('tattva apratibodha' ) ,
>>> that is what I have been saying also all along. Sri Subrahmanian Ji may
>>> please clarify.
>> It is the vikṣepa that is meant here as 'āgantuka' since that is what is
>> manifest and is anarthahetu directly.
>> regards
>> vs

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