[Advaita-l] avidya is Agantuka

[Venkatraghavan S]

Sri Chandramouli,

Thanks to you and Sri Ravi Kiran for introducing and carrying this
discussion forward.

Given Anandagiri AchArya has provided the sub commentary, one would have to
think that BhagavatpAda was referring to the manifestation of अविद्या
having आगन्तुकत्वं.

The problem with taking "कारण शरीरं being exclusively active in सुषुप्ति"
as BhagavatpAdA's intended meaning of आगन्तुकत्वं of अविद्या, is one of
context in my opinion.

The passage is talking of the absence of अविद्या, काम and कर्म in आत्मा, on
account of all such characteristics being आगन्तुक. Because काम and कर्म are
included in addition to अविद्या, in my humble opinion, in this context, the
description of आत्मा is not given as शरीरत्रय विलक्षणं. Why? Because even
if अविद्या is taken to mean कारण शरीरं, it would be a stretch to equate काम
and कर्म to mean स्थूल-सूक्ष्म शरीरौ.

It may be argued that अविद्या refers to कारण शरीरं, but काम and कर्म  refer
to the traditional meaning of the terms.

To that argument, one would have to point out that the same adjective,
आगन्तुक, is used to describe अविद्या, काम and कर्म. It would be odd  for
अविद्या to refer to कारण शरीरं, but अविद्याs आगन्तुकत्वं to refer to only
the कारण शरीरं being active in सुषुप्ति (as it cannot be directly argued
that कारण शरीर is आगन्तुक, as कारण शरीर is अनादि, a fact which you have
pointed out as well). This becomes especially a stretch, when when no so
such mental gymnastics are required to explain the आगन्तुकत्वं of काम and
कर्म.

So if they are not a metaphor for शरीर त्रय, what else do अविद्या, काम and
कर्म represent?

In my opinion, they represent आगन्तुक धर्माः that are superimposed on Atma
and represent the causes of samsAra. So अविद्या here is not used to
represent मूलाविद्या, but simply the manifestation of आत्म अज्ञानं, which
can be आगन्तुकं.

To reinforce the notion that these are अध्यस्त धर्माः, Atma is described by
Shankara as "सर्वसंबंधातीतं" later on in the bhAshya of the same mantra.
These are some random thoughts, so if there are some things wrong in it,
please do forgive me.

Regards,
Venkatraghavan
On 9 Jan 2016 11:07, "H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l" <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Sri Durga Prasad Ji,
>
>
> Namaste.
>
>
> Reg << A good thing about avidyA (अविद्या) as adventitous (आगन्तुक) is that
> once
> avidyA (अविद्या) leaves, it will not come back again. >>.
>
>
> In Vedanta avidyA (अविद्या) is declared to be anAdi ( अनादि ). But in
> respect of individual Jivas it is sAnta ( सान्त ) meaning it has an end (
> after Realization ) which is an exception to the general rule that what is
> anAdi ( अनादि) is अनंत( ananta, endless ) also. Since it is anAdi ( अनादि)
> , avidyA (अविद्या) is not considered to be adventitous (आगन्तुक) which
> implies repititous comig and going. So the issue is how is it that Sri
> Bhagavatpada has termed the same as adventitous (आगन्तुक) in the Bhashya on
> BU 4.3.22 ? And whether anywhere else in Shruti/Bhashya a similar mention
> is made ? My response was in response to this.
>
>
> Reg << "kAraNasharIra (कारणशरीर) which is also adventitous (आगन्तुक) for
> the Jiva
> in the state of Sushupti (सुषुप्ति)."
>
> The Jiva is because of kAraNasharIra (कारणशरीर ) / avidyA (अविद्या).
> The kAraNasharIra (कारणशरीर ) / avidyA ( अविद्या ) is in all three avasthas
> - waking, dream and deep sleep. >>,
>
>
> kAraNasharIra (कारणशरीर ) itself expands/manifests as sUkShmasharIra (
> सूक्ष्मशरीर
> ) and sthUla sharIra( स्थूल शरीर ) in the dream and waking states
> respectively. It is therefore generally stated that the Jiva is endowed
> with sthUla sharIra( स्थूल शरीर ) , sUkShmasharIra ( सूक्ष्मशरीर ), and
> kAraNasharIra (कारणशरीर ) in the waking , dream and sleep ( सुषुप्ति )
> states respectively. It is only is sleep ( सुषुप्ति ) state that the Jiva
> is endowed exclusively with with kAraNasharIra (कारणशरीर ) and it is in
> this sense kAraNasharIra (कारणशरीर ) is considered adventitous (आगन्तुक).
> Thus avidyA (अविद्या) as adventitous (आगन्तुक) is used in this special
> sense by Sri Bhagavatpada in the Bhashya on BU 4.3.22.
>
>
> Regards
>
> On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Durga Prasad Janaswamy via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Hari Om,
> > Namaste.
> >
> > "kAraNasharIra (कारणशरीर) and avidyA (अविद्या) as synonymous."
> >
> > "kAraNasharIra (कारणशरीर) which is also adventitous (आगन्तुक) for the
> Jiva
> > in the state of Sushupti (सुषुप्ति)."
> >
> > The Jiva is because of kAraNasharIra (कारणशरीर ) / avidyA (अविद्या).
> > The kAraNasharIra (कारणशरीर ) / avidyA ( अविद्या ) is in all three
> avasthas
> > - waking, dream and deep sleep.
> >
> > A good thing about avidyA (अविद्या) as adventitous (आगन्तुक) is that once
> > avidyA (अविद्या) leaves, it will not come back again.
> >
> > regards
> > -- durga prasad
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 2:32 AM, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Sri Ravi Kiran Ji,
> > >
> > >
> > > What a pleasant coincidence. You had pointed out that in the Bhashya on
> > BU
> > > 4.3.22, Sri Bhagavatpada had termed avidyA ( अविद्या ) as adventitous (
> > > आगन्तुक
> > > ) and raised a question as to whether anywhere else in Shruti/Bhashya a
> > > similar mention is made. I was listening to the talk delivered last
> > > saturday by Swami Paramarthananda Ji in the series on Vichara Sagara
> > > authored by Sadhu Nishchal Das. The topic was vedantic epistemology. In
> > > this two types of Vritti ( वृत्ति ) are recognized which are generally
> > > termed antaHkaraNa vritti ( अन्तःकरण वृत्ति ) and avidyA vritti (
> अविद्या
> > > वृत्ति ). However Sadhu Nishchal Das terms these sUkShmasharIra vritti
> > > ( सूक्ष्मशरीर
> > > वृत्ति ) and kAraNasharIra vritti ( कारणशरीर वृत्ति ) respectively. At
> > this
> > > stage Swami Paramarthananda Ji recalled that Sri Bhagavatpada also has,
> > > while defining kAraNasharIra ( कारणशरीर ) in his prakarana grantha
> Tattva
> > > Bodha, referred to it as avidyA ( अविद्या ). The verse is as follows
> > >
> > >
> > > << कारणशरीरं किम् ?-
> > >
> > >
> > > अनिर्वचनाद्यविद्यारूपं शरीरद्वयस्य कारणमात्रं सत्स्वरूपाज्ञानं
> > >
> > > निर्विकल्पकरूपं यदस्ति तत्कारणशरीरम् । >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Translation by Swami Tejomayananda
> > >
> > >
> > > << That which is inexplicable,beginningless, in the form of ignorance,
> > the
> > > sole cause of the two bodies ( gross and subtle ), ignorant of one's
> own
> > > true nature, free from duality- that is the causal body >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Swami Paramarthananda Ji explained that Sri Bhagavatpada has here
> termed
> > > kAraNasharIra (कारणशरीर ) and avidyA ( अविद्या ) as synonymous.
> > >
> > >
> > > The context in which kAraNasharIra ( कारणशरीर ) is most relevant is
> > > Sushupti ( सुषुप्ति ) which is also what is under discussion in BU
> > 4.3.22.
> > > Thus the term avidyA ( अविद्या ) in BU 4.3.22 referred to as
> > > adventitous ( आगन्तुक
> > > ) should be understood as kAraNasharIra ( कारणशरीर ) which is also
> > > adventitous ( आगन्तुक ) for the Jiva in the state of Sushupti (
> सुषुप्ति
> > ).
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 5:17 PM, Ravi Kiran via Advaita-l <
> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Namaste
> > > >
> > > > In the bhashyam to Br.Up.4.3.22, it is said that ..
> > > >
> > > > प्रकृतः स्वयञ्ज्योतिरात्मा अविद्याकामकर्मविनिर्मुक्त इत्युक्तम्,
> > > > असङ्गत्वादात्मनः, आगन्तुकत्वाच्च तेषाम् ।
> > > >
> > > > It has been said that the self-effulgent Ātman which is being
> described
> > > is
> > > > free from ignorance, desire and work, for it is unattached, while
> they
> > > are
> > > > adventitious.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Are there any other places (Sruti / bhashyam ), where we can find
> such
> > > > mention ?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > > > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > > > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> > > >
> > > > For assistance, contact:
> > > > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> > >
> > > For assistance, contact:
> > > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> >
> > For assistance, contact:
> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>