[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: Difficulty with Akhandakara Vrtti

Aurobind Padiyath aurobind.padiyath at gmail.com
Tue Jun 23 00:12:34 CDT 2015

Hari Om!!!
Sri Venkatraghavanji and Sri Sadaji,
Just to clear my views on your replies:

Venkatraghavanji replied:

If you are saying that avidyA and brahman (or swaroopa in your terminology)
cannot exist simultaneously, that is not correct. Avidya doesn't require
the antah karaNa for its existence.  Avidya rests and exists (apparently)
only because of brahman, and not antah karaNa - that is the moolAvidyA or
mAyA or kAraNa sharirA.

Me: Swaprakashe kuto Avidya? In the Light of knowledge no ignorance can
stand. So if you accept Brahman and Avidya co-exist it is like both
darkness and light on the same object. Maya or MoolAvidya or what ever we
call it is not in Swaroopa or Brahman, both being the same, but in the
Anthakarana thru which the Jeeva bhava is assumed. The Jeeeva bhava is a
reflected knowledge of That Brahman. Reflection being thru the Anthakarana
the impurity of the Anthakarana can affect the quality of Pure knowledge
but never affect That source.

Venkatraghavanji replied:

The absence of knowledge in deep sleep is due to the absence of any
vishaya, but that doesn't mean that the folded mind becomes an aparoksha
brahma gyAni then. Your statement that "ignorance cannot stand in the
presence of swaroopa unless assisted by antahkaraNa" cannot be true,
because otherwise in deep sleep the moolavidyA would be destroyed because
of its proximity to Brahman and absence of antahkaraNam.

Me: You misunderstood me here. I did not say in deep sleep one becomes
Aporoksha Brahma Jnani. All I said was there is Vishesha vijnana abhava and
hence no ignorance caused by non-apprehension and mis-apprehension. There
is the light knowledge shining as it is and not reflected, in deep sleep.
And no one will ever "become" a Jnani in deep sleep because you do not have
the cause and effect of ignorance there. Both these cause and effect
causing the ignorance is in other than deep sleep. One can treat illness
only on who it is shown. The 'sleeper' doesn't know or show Ajnana and
hence no Vidya can be given to that state.

Venkatraghavanji replied:

The ananda that is experienced in deep sleep is because the kAraNa sharira
simply reflects brahman and no other thing, and as the vritti in deep sleep
is a pure antar-mukha vritti without any bahir vishaya disturbances, the
reflection of ananda swaroopam of brahman  on the folded mind causes the
"experience of ananda" more than one would typically face in the jAgrat
avasthA - the exception being yogic samAdhi, when there is a similar chitta
vritti nirodhA.

Me: I do not agree with you that there is "The Ananda" experienced
as reflected in Kaarana Shareera. While I agree the absence of Vishaya
Vigjnana, The Ananda one feels here is the stillness of vritti (in other
words mind) caused due to the absence of Variying Vishaya Vigjnana. The
Ananda of Bhuma even if reflected is unfathomable. Yetra na Anya pashyati,
Anya Shrunoti etc...

Sadaji replied:

Sakshii swaruupam is jnaanam as pure consciousness not jnaanam of -
including the jnaanam of self. It is unqualified homogenous
undifferentiated consciousness or pure Knowledge without any qualification.
Saakshi does not even know or need not know its saaskhitvam too  as from
its point there is no saakshyam also. Some of these are discussed in the
Advaita Makaranda by Lakshmidhara kavi.

Me: This is exactly what I also said. IT, the Sakshi, alone is there is
deep sleep. The Anthakarana abhava in deep sleep is not ignorance or
avidya. One cannot prove that the anthakarana is the one who is sleeping
because one should know that the anthakarana is identified by the vritties.
In the absence of it does not mean it is present and sleeping. Just as the
Jagrat vishaya vigjnana is only to Jagrat , It's absence is deep sleep. The
Avidya we talk is present and experienced only in Jagrat (includes both
waking and dream). We do not know the Sakshi in deep sleep because the
anthakarana is not there to know or reflect.

Now to summarize:

Vritties, immaterial if we call it Anthakarana, is the Avidaya. And just as
no snake can exist without a real rope these vritties are intertwined with
the Truth and hence difficult to separate just as difficult as the snake to
be separated from the rope, unless the knowledge arises in the same place
where the snake knowledge exists and at the same time and space too. So
only in waking there is Avidya and it can be removed only in waking. The
Akhandakara Vritti (not a Vritti as in normal terms) is the waking state of
that Jnanai who sees everything as Sat Chit Ananda. Or as Chandogya Ch. 7
says. Yetra na anya pashyati, any shrunoti, anya vijanati. Either
everything as Bhodaroopam or Total Oneness where there is nothing other
than Pure Existance.


On 23 June 2015 at 09:12, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>

> Aurobindji:
> I agree with you on the other points mentioned in your mail except the
> following
> "For ajnaani, when he goes to deep sleep state he sleeps as ajnaani only -
> no ajnaani gets up from deep sleep state as jnaani."
> Ajnana is only for the antahkarana not for swaroopa. Jnana will be needed
> where ever Ajnana is present. In your explanation of deep sleep if Ajnana
> is there,  Guru and upadesha will be needed there also in deep sleep.
> -----------------------------
> Sada:
> Let us look a simpler problem. Two cases: 1. ajnaani of Chemistry 2.
> Jnaani of Chemistry. - For both jnaanm or ajnanaam is at the intellect
> level. When ajnaani of Chemistry sleeps, his intellect that has ajnaanam
> also folded as such. Hence in his deep sleep - the mind that does not
> Chemistry sleeps as such. On the other hand the jnaani of Chemistry the
> jnaanam is also in the intellect and when it is folded, he sleeps as such
> as folded jnaanam of chemistry.
> We are not talking of the Saaskhi which never sleeps. It is illumining the
> sleeping folded minds of both jnaani and ajnaani . From its point it is
> unaffected by what it illumines or to say more correctly what gets
> illumined in its presence.  - just as Sun is unaffected by what is getting
> illumined.
> Sakshii swaruupam is jnaanam as pure consciousness not jnaanam of -
> including the jnaanam of self. It is unqualified homogenous
> undifferentiated consciousness or pure Knowledge without any qualification.
> Saakshi does not even know or need not know its saaskhitvam too  as from
> its point there is no saakshyam also. Some of these are discussed in the
> Advaita Makaranda by Lakshmidhara kavi.
> The self-knowledge is also at the Mind level only or you can say at
> anthakaraNa. - Shankara discusses this exhaustively in relation to the
> sloka -kshetrajnam ca api maam viddhi sarva kshetreshu bhaarata.
> The jnaani and ajnaani is only at vyaavahaara state - that is the  notions
> in the mind (illumined by chidaabhasa) that consciousness that I am is the
> all pervading consciousness the original light that is getting illumined.
> It is the mind that has to know. Hence Vedanta is for the mind - and it is
> the mind that needs a teacher.
> In deep sleep state, the knowledge cannot occurs since the mind that needs
> to know is not available to learn. To see the original light of
> consciousnesses (which cannot be seen) but can be seen only cognitively, I
> need to prepare the mind - Viveka is required and is available only in the
> waking state. Hence any self-realization by the mind can only take place in
> the waking state. It requires subtle discrimination to differentiate the
> real from apparently real. It is like looking at the full moon, I want to
> see the sunlight that is illumining the moon while seeing only the
> reflected sunlight from the moon. I cannot see the original sunlight. This
> is example where sun is a source. The pure sat chit ananda that is
> all-pervading light of consciousness there is no localizes source. Saakshi
> is term we use only for that (part - word used to convey only) that is
> illumining the local mind - which cannot be recognized other than
> cognitively using the reflected
>  light - chidabhaasa - reflection by the subtle body. This is what we mean
> by self-realization is also mithyaa only since it is at the mind level.
> -------------------------------------------
> Arabindji:
>  Ajnana being only experienced during waking, because the Antahkarana
> becomes active on waking with the budhi, part of Anthakarana, reflecting
> the Chit. That's why when the Ajnani wakes as Ajnani and Jnani as Jnani.
> Like the tiger and mosquito as respective animals. A blue flower will
> reflect only blue just as red as red. So all reflections in a Ajnana
> Anthakarana can only reflect ignorance. And Ajnana is only in waking
> because of which the need to eradicate that in waking. Deep sleep is "Easha
> Swabhavah" as told in Mandukya. Even waking and dream is the same,  that's
> why we see Jnanis like any others having waking deep sleep and dream. But
> they have the Jnanam which do not delude them like others.
> Sada: Yes. This is true for Janni also. Jnaanam is only at the antahkarana
> stage only. From the point of pure saakshii it is one without a second- No
> saakshyam even.
> The Mandukya discusses in each state two aspect one from the micro and the
> other from macro. In mantra 5 it states from the micro aspect - na kanacana
> kaamam kamayata et. in the Mantra 6 from the samashiti point as Iswara.
> We are discussing at the vyashTi level since from samashTi level we call
> Iswara as sarvajna. Hence it is only vyashTi ajnaani that need to be
> eliminated and for that Viveka which is available only in the waking state
> is needed.
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda

Aurobind Padiyath

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