[Advaita-l] Who Slept Very Well? - Part IV

Nithin Sridhar sridhar.nithin at gmail.com
Sat Feb 22 09:15:46 CST 2014

Thank you for elaborate reply. In my opinion at the outset all these
differences appear only a difference of approach. Different acharyas have
explained same concept in different way according to temperaments of
students! Hence at least as far as I am concerned these differences in
details is of interest only to those who dive deep in tarka.
On Feb 22, 2014 4:08 PM, "H S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>

> Dear Sri Nitiji and Sri Ramesh Vemuriji,
> << I would also be interested to know the major points of dispute between
> Sri
> Sachidanandendra Saraswathi and the others. >>
> Based on the contents of the booklet moolavidya vimarshana, I have tried to
> summarize the main issues of contention between the traditional (
> vivarana/bhamati as applicable ) and Sri SSSjis views.
> 1. Issue  << Is bhavarupa moolavidya which is the  cause for samsara
> consistent with Sri Bhagavatpada Sidhanta or not >> . According to
> traditional views, bhavarupa moolavidya as  the root cause ( moola karana )
> for all samsara is entirely consistent with sidhanta. But according to Sri
> SSS , based on adhyasa bhashya , mutual adhyasa between atma and anatma is
> called avidya and this is the root cause ( moola karana )  for all secular
> and vedic vyavahara , and bringingin  moolavidya as the karana vastu even
> for this avidya is contrary to the Bhashya.
> 2. Sushupti. According to traditional views ajnana which is the cause for
> bandha is present in sushupti. But according to Sri SSS there is neither
> avidya nor adhyasa  separate from the atman in sushupti.
> 3.  Traditional view considers moolavidya both as moola karana for samsara
> ( as avidya ) as well as the seed  for Creation ( as avyakta or avyakruta
> or maya ) . Sri SSS maitains that avidya is mithya jnana which is removed
> by jnana ( as per adhyasa bhashya ) whereas maya is the seed  for avidya
> kalpitha namarupa Creation ( as per BS 2-1-14 ) . Also in BS 1-4-3, since
> Sri Bhagavatpada  has  interpreted avyakta  as maya on the one hand and  as
> avidya on the other separately, the interpretation should be that avidya is
> in the realm of jnana whereas maya is in the realm of object ( jneya ) and
> therefore the conclusion is avidya is the seed ( nimitta ) for samsara
> while avyakta is the seed ( upadana karana ) for Creation.So the two,
> avidya and avyakta , should not be clubbed together as a single entity
> moolavidya.
> There are other differences also in specific portions of the Bhashya. But
> as per my understanding they all in one way or the other traceable to these
> fundamental issues. Sri SSS has advanced several Bhashya/shruti vakyas in
> support of his contention. In fact he goes so far as to state that the
> traditional views ( both vivarana and bhamati ) have not even understood
> the spirit of the Bhagavatpada Sidhanta at all and have gone against it. He
> also maintains that with those views many arguments advanced by the
> dvaitins ( both vishishtadvaita and Madhwa sidhanta ) cannot be negated.
> I have tried to present the issues to the best of my ability. As Sri
> Bhaskarji has mentioned, for a serious study of the views of Sri SSS one
> needs to refer to the works of Sri SSS mentioned by him in his post. I hope
> this will be of some value to those who just want to understand the basic
> issues involved.
> Regards
> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 9:45 AM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
> kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Continuation as Part IV
> > -------------------------------------
> >
> > Deep-Sleep State:
> >
> > When we go to deep sleep state, we start withdrawing each of the koshas,
> > one by one, with the desire or thought of going to deep-sleep state. 'I
> > want to sleep' thought forms contents of the vijnana maya kosha or the
> > intellect, when it goes to sleep or when it goes into an unmanifested
> > state.  In the process of sleeping, there is a withdrawal of each of the
> > grosser koshas into the subtler one - that annamya kosha to pranamaya
> > kosha, pranamaya to manomaya, manomaya to vijnaana maya.  At the time of
> > sleep, the vijnaana maya or the intellectual sheath becomes unmanifested
> > state with all the koshas as part of its ingredients, but in
> > undifferentiated form. That unmanifested state of intellectual sheath
> with
> > all its constituent koshas is now called anandamaya kosha, since there is
> > absence of any discriminative thoughts, and associated relationships,
> other
> > than the homogeneous thought of ignorance or avidya. This is referred to
> as
> > avidya vRitti.  It is
> >  in a sense an experience involving the knowledge of the absence of
> > anything and everything.  Hence Mandukya says - na kinchana kaamam
> > kaamayata - there is absence of desire for any object since there is no
> > perception or recognition of any particular object of any kind in that
> > unmanifested state.
> >
> > Along with the ignorance, there is an experience of happiness as the
> > absence of any duality that involves all relationships. In essence, all
> > human suffering comes from the notional relationships and ownerships that
> > arise due to individual raaga and dweshaas or likes and dislikes. Hence
> it
> > is happiness born out of absence of suffering.  It is still a reflected
> > happiness or consciousness since reflection by the homogenous ignorance
> > thought or avidyaa vRitti. Tai. Up classifies the degree of happiness in
> > the anandamaya kosha in terms of moda, pramoda, etc. The very
> > classification implies it is not an absolute happiness but only reflected
> > happiness as in waking and dream states.
> >
> > Hence it is ananda mayam, and it is kosha since there is inherent
> > identification with the Vijnaanamaya now in potential or unmanifested
> > form.  It is now in its pure existential form since there is no apparent
> > duality or plurality.  Pure existence is nothing but Brahman. Hence, one
> > can say that it is Brahman in the form of ananda maya kosha exists in the
> > deep sleep state. Identification with the vijnana maya kosha is now
> shifted
> > to the identification with anandamaya kosha.  The experience of 'I slept
> > well' involves both the existence (sat aspect of Brahman) as well as the
> > bliss or ananda aspect of Brahman.
> >
> > In essence, this sequence of withdrawal of grosser koshas to the finer
> > ones up to the anandamaya kosha is called going into deep sleep state.
> > Since there are no two thoughts to differentiate from the other, and
> there
> > is just an experience of a single homogenous thought of ignorance called
> > avidya vRitti, there is no concept of space and time. Time arises as a
> gap
> > between two sequential thoughts and movement in time is space; and both
> are
> > absent in deep-sleep state.
> >
> > What is there in deep sleep state is only an undifferentiable homogeneous
> > thought that started originally a thought as 'I want to sleep'. The
> > knowledge also in aananda maya kosha, which is nothing but vijnanamaya
> > kosha in potential form or unmanifested form, occurs also spontaneously
> as
> > the all-pervading consciousness or sAkshI illumines this anandamaya kosha
> > with the avidyaa vRitti. Although we can say that aanandamya kosha acts
> as
> > a knower and the known is the absence of everything or avidya vRitti, it
> is
> > unlike the knowledge in the waking state where the knower and known
> duality
> > involves distinct pramANa or means of knowledge resulting in tripuTi or
> > triad mentioned earlier. In the deep-sleep state the consciousness
> > reflected in the anandamaya kosha as chidAbhAsa acts as the subject
> knower
> > and the thought of ignorance as avidya vRitti forms the object of
> > knowledge.  Since avidyaa vRitti involves homogenious undifferented
> > ignorance of everything,
> >  the reflected consciousness only illumines this ignorance as object of
> > knowledge. The knower is the enlivening ananda mayakosha which is nothing
> > but vijnaanamaya kosha with all its components (other koshes) in
> > undifferentiated potential form. Hence in deep sleep there are three
> > factors, a) vijnaanamaya kosha in potential form as anandamaya kosha, b)
> > the reflected consciousness, chidAbhAsa reflected in this anandamaya
> kosha
> > c) undifferented homogenious ignorance as vRitti.
> >
> > When one awakes from deep sleep state (due to pressure of vaasanaas) the
> > unfolding of the koshas occur in reverse order with vijnaana maya kosha
> > taking its manifested form, with unfolding of each of the koshas, first
> the
> > manomaya and then praana maya  and then annamaya koshas. The knower
> -known
> > dualily in the potential form is now unfolded where the knower is the
> > vijnaana maya kosha and known is the homogeneous ignorance of everything.
> > Hence when the mind (vijaanamyaka kosha) says I slept well implies that I
> > was there in potential form and I did not know anything expressing both
> > experiences one as my existence as I was there to sleep well, and the
> other
> > is my ignorance while I was in that state. I being referred to here is
> > again the unholy combination of the pure consciousness with the
> anandamaya
> > kosha or unfolded vijnaanamaya kosha.  One can also say that ahankaara in
> > the potential form slept very well since as we mentioned that ahankaara
> is
> >  identification of I am with this - this here being the anandamaya kosha.
> > Thus, upahita chaitanya (RC or reflected consciousness) identifying with
> > the upAdhi as ahankaara jiiva slept very well and did not know anything
> in
> > the deep-sleep state.  As we mentioned before, the pure all-pervading
> > consciousness has nothing to do with waking, dreaming or deep-sleeping
> > states. It is the witnessing consciousness that is every shining
> principle
> > without any duality whatsoever.  Hence even the deep-sleep state is also
> > from vyavahaara point only, as declared by Mandukya in mantra 7 as
> turIyam
> > as na prajnaana ghanam.  Since the experience in deep-sleep state
> involves
> > absence of all dualities, it is an experience of non-duality but without
> > any knowledge of the absolute truth of advaita.  Here I am
> differentiating
> > non-duality from the advaita and the reason is advaita knowledge involves
> > knowledge of non-duality, in spite of apparent duality, whereas the in
> the
> >  deep-sleep state there is only the absence of duality and knowledge of
> > the ignorance.  Thus advaitic understanding differs from just the
> > experience of non-duality. This aspect is very important since many want
> to
> > experience non-duality as the goal of self-realization. What is required
> is
> > the knowledge of the absoluteness of the self that is aham brahmaasmi or
> I
> > am the infiniteness. That knowledge has to take place with the mind and
> in
> > the mind only. Hence, the advice of the scriptures is to approach a
> teacher
> > for this knowledge.
> >
> > Analysis of our deep sleep experience should provide us many aspects for
> a
> > keen Vedantic student.
> >
> > 1.    It is an advaitic experience without knowledge of the absolute
> truth
> > - indicating that self-realization does not involve an experience of
> > non-duality by shunning or shutting of the mind, since we are
> experiencing
> > this all the time when we go to deep sleep state. No one gets up from
> > deep-sleep with advaitic knowledge or with self-realization.
> >
> > 2.    Self-realization therefore involves clear understanding of my
> > advaitic nature irrespective of the presence or absence of duality. That
> > understanding comes only with the mind which is ready to learn via
> > shravana, manana and nidhidhyaasana that scriptures prescribe. That is
> > listening to the scriptures under a competent teacher who himself has
> > learned this from his teacher, and reflecting on the teaching until there
> > are no more doubts and contemplating on the teaching until one recognizes
> > all the time I am that pure existent consciousness, one without a second.
> >
> > 3.    In the deep sleep state, jnaani sleeps as jnaani and ajnaani sleeps
> > as ajnaani. This is because the mind that has the knowledge or ignorance
> of
> > one's true nature is folded with its knowledge to be in potential form.
> > Hence jnaanam or ajnaanam of oneself is in potential form in the
> anandamaya
> > kosha.
> >
> > 4.    The knowledge including the self-knowledge occurs in or with the
> > upahita chaitanya or reflected consciousness, reflected in the vijnaamaya
> > kosha. Hence viveka or discriminative intellect becomes important tool
> > along with shraddhaa or faith in the teaching as emphasized by Lord
> Krishna
> > as - shraddhaavan labhate jnaanam.
> >
> > 5.  There are several misconceptions about deep-sleep state in the
> > literature. See for example the discussion between Shree Ananda wood and
> > Shree Dennis relating to Shree Atmanandaji account of deep-sleep state.
> The
> > discussion can be found at
> > http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/atmananda/atmananda4f.htm
> > It appears from the discussion deep-sleep is being described somewhat
> > similar to turIyam while in fact in the description of turIyam the
> > scripture negates the deep-sleep state as part of mithyaa only. The
> > confusion can be due to the misunderstanding that pure consciousness
> > involves objectless awareness as the description indicates. Even if one
> > takes that operational definition, the deep sleep state is not objectless
> > awareness. In deep sleep state we are aware of the homogeneous ignorance
> > just as stated above with example of pitch dark room where we are aware
> of
> > objectless-ness.  In both pitch dark room and in deep sleep state we have
> > an object for awareness; darkness in the pitch dark room and ignorance in
> > the deep-sleep state. For that reason only we can say - I do not see or
> > know anything there in the pitch dark room or in the deep-sleep state.
> > Absence of non-existence of an object or objects is knowledge stated as
> > anupalabdi pramANa. As a final
> >  note again - self-realization does not necessarily involves objectless
> > awareness but recognition that I am awareness with or without thoughts or
> > vRittis or object-thoughts. Hence, advaitic knowledge involves
> recognition
> > that I am pure existence-consciousness-limitless with or without the
> world
> > of plurality present since the plurality that is present is only mithyaa
> > and therefore cannot disturb my advaitic state.
> >
> > Hari Om!
> > Sadananda
> >
> >
> >
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