[Advaita-l] Who Slept Very Well? - Part IV

kuntimaddi sadananda kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 7 08:56:20 CST 2014

Baskarji - PraNAms

First thanks for your kind comments. 

I also know based on your posts in the past that there are some differences between your understanding and mine. The write up is mostly based on Pancadashi 11th ch. of Shree Vidyaranya - obviously comes under later aachaaryas after Shankara bhagavat paada. However Vidyaranya quotes Shruti statements to justify his writings. 

I concentrate mostly on the knowledge and my understanding - hence as I had mentioned before I would not remember and therefore would not be able to give you references you need in order justify my understanding. Shree Subbuji or other scholars who are on top of these things  perhaps can give you those references. 

I am responding to your comments again based on my understanding without getting in to back and forth discussions on these. 

On Fri, 2/7/14, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:

 1.    It is an advaitic experience without
 knowledge of the absolute truth 
 – indicating that self-realization does not involve an
 experience of 
 non-duality by shunning or shutting of the mind, since we
 are experiencing 
 this all the time when we go to deep sleep state. No one
 gets up from 
 deep-sleep with advaitic knowledge or with self-realization.
 >  You are absolutely right prabhuji.  Though
 there is absolute ekatva in 
 sushupti, we donot realize that since there is agrahaNAtmaka
 avidyA in 
 this state from jeeva perspective who is analyzing this
 state from waking. 
 jnAna is required to realize this 'ekatva' in
 sushupti.  And that jnAna 
 cannot come in sushupti since there is an absence of upAdhi.
Sada: In suhupti as pointed in the rest of the articles - there is still upaadhi. Upaadhi will not be there only when there is videha mukti. For jiivanmukta it is upahita chaitanya that recognizes consciousness that I am is pure and all-pervading consciousness - It is like pot-space (while pot upaadhi still present) recognizes that I am the total space while still remaining in the pot. 

In sushupti - the upaadhi , as pointed out, is the anandamaya kosha which is nothing but vijnaanamaya kosha in unmanifested form. There is also the chidaabhaasa - where pure all pervading consciousness getting reflected in the anandamaya kosha.  The object of awareness is the knowledge of the absence of all dualities. 

Your last statement should be jnaana cannot come in sushupti since the vijnana maya kosha is in unmanifested form and what is there is akhanda ajnaana vRitti. These were discussed in the previous parts. Knowledge can come only with intellect using an appropriate pramAna - and in this case Vedanta pramaana. Hence upaadhi is there but not in operating condition. 

 3.    In the deep sleep state, jnaani sleeps as
 jnaani and ajnaani sleeps 
 as ajnaani. 
 >  Yes, I see myself as same ajnAni only everday
 after 'sushupti' :-))
 This is because the mind that has the knowledge or ignorance
 of one’s true 
 nature is folded with its knowledge to be in potential form.
 Hence jnaanam 
 or ajnaanam of oneself is in potential form in the
 anandamaya kosha. 
 >  if the jnAni's  paramArtha jnAna is just
 another 'data' in his mind, 
 what happens to his jnAna when the jnAni suffers from
 alzheimer's disease 
 or brain-dead coma??  I hope you are not saying here
 'yard stick' to 
 ascertain the jnAna of the jnAni is 'data' in his brain
 compartment and 
 how actively he uses it.  I think Sri Dennis Waite
 prabhuji had asked this 
 question some years back. 

Sada: Jnaanam involves clear understanding that I am not this upaadhi but I am that which enlivens the Upaadhi. I am the all pervading consciousness that illumines this as well as all other upaadhis in the universe. That is jnaanam gained using the local mind. 
>From then Jaanin knows who is in spite of the conditions of the BMI. Knowledge once gained will not be dissolved. 
The upaadhi's problem belongs to praarabda karma. Jnaani understood that He was never these upaadhiis in the past, in the present and in the future.
Hence what happens to the upaadhi's is not much concern - as long as they are functioning Iswara may use those upaadhis for the benefit of the totality which we call as loka kalyaanam.
Here the above statements pertains to the one who is jnaana niShTa or sthitaprajna. 
Now if you look at your statements above you can see the problems. 
Jnaani does not suffer even if the BMI suffers due to praarabda. That is what jnaanam means. 
Knowledge is not some data - then it is paroxajnaanam - aparoxajnaanam is like the 10th man recognition. 
If jnaani cannot use the BMI -he let it undergo its own destruction as per its praarabda - since he is using it only for the benefit of others while he is reveling in himself by himself. 

 It appears from the discussion deep-sleep is being described
 similar to turIyam while in fact in the description of
 turIyam the 
 scripture negates the deep-sleep state as part of mithyaa
 >  I would have appreciated if you would have given
 those scriptural 
 references.  Anyway, one shruti says Atma has three
 avasthA-s and all the 
 three avasthA-s are mere svapna..( tasya traya avasathA
 trayee svapnAH. 
 But when the sushupti is seen from the sushupti avastha
 (anubhavAtmaka drushti) without bringing the waking mind's
 'sushupti' viveka itself is enough to know our real svarUpa
 says clearly 
 by shankara. 

Bhaskar - look at the mantra 7 if Madukya Up. where the so-called turIyam is described. 
It negates all the three states right away. I did mention the word in my write up - na prajnaana ghanam - that is the negation of the deep-sleep state as it is being referred to as prajnaana ghanam - why it is so, has been discussed in the other parts of the post. Hence it is there all the three states but yet different from all the three state. It is not a separate state but is called as the fourth state just to distinguish from the three states - hence is not deep-sleep state. 
  The confusion can be due to the misunderstanding that pure
 involves objectless awareness as the description indicates.
 Even if one 
 takes that operational definition, the deep sleep state is
 not objectless 
 >  again I beg to differ from this.  The
 statement the deep sleep state is 
 NOT objectless awareness' does not find any place in
 bhagavatpAda's bhAshya...there is a bhAshya vakya that says
 that nAma & 
 rUpa will be in avyAkruta rUpa in sushupti which will become
 vyAkruta in 
 jAgrat and svapna.  Sushupti is the state where there
 is no objects hence 
 there is no adhyAsa there.  Here Atman is sarvOpAdhi
 vinirmukta hence he 
 will be in his sva-svarUpa. 

Sada: Bhaskarji - No problem. you can differ.

However, the sushupti is not completely objectless since as been pointed out that the object is - ignorance itself - expressed as knowledge of the absence of any perceivable objects. I have discussed this in the series itself  using pitch-dark room where I do not see any objects due to darkness but I see the darkness- The darkness is the object of my knowledge. Same way the knowledge of undifferentiated ignorance or avidyaa vRitti is the object in the deep sleep state. This aspect is also is evident from the universal experience - that I did not know any thing is also knowledge which I gained in the deep-sleep state and report after waking up. That there is no subject-object duality is also knowledge. Scripture says there is no desire for objects since no object is perceived. 
Object that are not there are perceptible objects just as in the pitch dark room - Please study the other parts - these are discussed elaborately in the post. 
Your next comment is again based on the assumption that there is no upaadhi in the deep sleep state. There will not be any upaadhi only when the videha mukti comes. Till there is upaadhi in the gross or subtle forms - in laya and in pralaya too. Since your comments are already been covered I would refrain from adding any more.

Thanks again for helping to clarify what I wrote. 

Hari Om!
 In deep sleep state we are aware of the homogeneous
 ignorance just as 
 stated above with example of pitch dark room where we are
 aware of 
 objectless-ness.  In both pitch dark room and in deep
 sleep state we have 
 an object for awareness; darkness in the pitch dark room and
 ignorance in 
 the deep-sleep state. 
 >  again here also if we see this avasthA from that
 avasthA itself, shruti 
 says he (prAjna) is sarvajna and sarva shakta..and he will
 be in his 
 nirupAdhika svarUpa. In sushupti jeeva attains ekatva with
 brahma hence he 
 does not have vishesha jnAna of nAma rUpa clarifies
 shankara.  tasya 
 AtmaivaH anyatvapratyupasthApaka hetOH avidyAyAH abhAvAt,
 here also 
 shankara clarifies there is an absence of 'anyatva hetu
 avidyA' in 
 For that reason only we can say – I do not see or know
 anything there in 
 the pitch dark room or in the deep-sleep state. 
 >  No reason here is not ignorance but
 'ekatva'.  The hetu for not seeing 
 the 'vishesha' is 'ekatva' clearly says shankara in bhAshya.
 And as you 
 yourself  said in one of your series, here Atma in
 sushupti, ashareeri, 
 hence there is no taint of avidyA..ashareeraM vAva saMtaM na
 Absence of non-existence of an object or objects is
 knowledge stated as 
 anupalabdi pramANa. As a final
  note again – self-realization does not necessarily
 involves objectless 
 awareness but recognition that I am awareness with or
 without thoughts or 
 vRittis or object-thoughts. Hence, advaitic knowledge
 involves recognition 
 that I am pure existence-consciousness-limitless with or
 without the world 
 of plurality present since the plurality that is present is
 only mithyaa 
 and therefore cannot disturb my advaitic state. 
 >  plurality presented here as separate 'plurality'
 is mithya, but when 
 this plurality seen from its adhishtAna ( like seeing ONLY
 upAdAna gold in 
 bangle, ring, bracelet etc. in nAma rUpa is satya only not
 jagat is nothing but vishesha darshana of that kAraNa and
 kArya cannot 
 have its own existence apart from that adhishtAna kAraNa.
 >  Once again, this is my understanding..you are
 welcome to disagree with 
 me prabhuji. 
 Hari Om!
 >  Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
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