[Advaita-l] Saakshii-Jiiva-Iswara Analysis - VI
kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com
Tue Mar 19 20:54:31 CDT 2013
Shree Ramesam gaaru - PraNAms
First, I need to clarify that it is not Swami Paramaarthanandaji's statement. When I write based on my notes, I take the essence in the class and most of what I write is my own understanding based on the teaching. Hence I am accountable for the statements made. It is of course obvious that one cannot take such extended notes while the class is going on.
Swami Paramarthanandaji does not refer to JK in his lectures. If there is any blame for the statement, I am accountable. Sometime in future, I plan to take few published talks of JK and analyze to show where the problem is based on my understanding.
In quoted JK article the understanding that one gets is that meditation and self-knowledge are the same. What he means may be abiding in the knowledge of the self that I am. However meditation is not a means for knowledge as it is not a pramANa; and knowledge can only be gained by a process - hence shrotavyaH, manthanvyaH and nidhidhyaasitavyaH. JK may be referring to Meditation for nidhidhyaasana but that is Vedantic meditation involving inquiry after shravana and manana using the Vedanta as pramANa. Unfortunately he criticizes the teaching and the teachers and those who do not understand the need for a teacher and teaching can get misled. na guru na shishyaH chidaananda ruupaH that understanding comes only after realization not before.
I take the responsibility for the quoted reference to JK. and should not be attributed to Swamiji.
> From: Ramesam Vemuri <vemuri.ramesam at gmail.com>
>To: kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>; A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 3:51 AM
>Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Saakshii-Jiiva-Iswara Analysis - VI
>Respected Dr. Sadananda Garu,
>Just today I have been casually perusing Facebook (an activity I do very
>A Message posted by one Sathees is reproduced below.
>Swami Paramarthananda refers to JK's blunder in his "so called teaching"
>re: Purification of the mind.
>The sort of meditation JK talks about is no less than any of
>such purifications. Perhaps, there is some misunderstanding somewhere. You
>also know JK well.
>It is pure kAka tAlIya nyAya that I happened to see the message at FB soon
>after I read your Post.
> <http://www.facebook.com/#>SORT <http://www.facebook.com/#>
> - <http://www.facebook.com/Sathees2008>
> Sathees Chandran <http://www.facebook.com/Sathees2008>
> Without Self-knowledge There is No Meditation – J. Krishnamurti
> When the superficial, conscious mind is thus fully aware of all its
> activities, through that understanding it becomes spontaneously quiet, not
> drugged by compulsion or regimented by desire; then it is in a position to
> receive the intimation, the hints of the unconscious, of the many, many
> hidden layers of the mind -- the racial instincts, the buried memories,
> the concealed pursuits, the deep wounds that are still unhealed. It is only
> when all these have projected themselves and are understood, when the whole
> consciousness is unburdened, unfettered by any wound, by any memory
> whatsoever, that it is in a position to receive the eternal.
> Meditation is self-knowledge and without self-knowledge there is no
> meditation. If you are not aware of all your responses all the time, if you
> are not fully conscious, fully cognizant of your daily activities, merely
> to lock yourself in a room and sit down in front of a picture of your guru,
> of your Master, to meditate, is an escape, because without self-knowledge
> there is no right thinking and, without right thinking, what you do has no
> meaning, however noble your intentions are.
> Thus prayer has no significance without self-knowledge but when there is
> self-knowledge there is right thinking and hence right action. When there
> is right action, there is no confusion and therefore there is no
> supplication to someone else to lead you out of it. A man who is fully
> aware is meditating; he does not pray, because he does not want anything.
> Through prayer, through regimentation, through repetition and all the rest
> of it, you can bring about a certain stillness, but that is mere dullness,
> reducing the mind and the heart to a state of weariness. it is drugging the
> mind; and exclusion, which you call concentration, does not lead to reality
> -- no exclusion ever can.
> What brings about understanding is self-knowledge, and it is not very
> difficult to be aware if there is right intention. If you are interested to
> discover the whole process of yourself -- not merely the superficial part
> but the total process of your whole being -- then it is comparatively easy.
> If you really want to know yourself, you will search out your heart and
> your mind to know their full content and when there is the intention to
> know, you will know. Then you can follow, without condemnation or
> justification, every movement of thought and feeling; by following every
> thought and every feeling as it arises in you brings about tranquility
> which is not compelled, not regimented, but which is the outcome of having
> no problem, no contradiction. It is like the pool that becomes peaceful,
> quiet, any evening when there is no wind; when the mind is still, then that
> which is immeasurable comes into being.
> -- J. Krishnamurti.
>On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 9:36 PM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
>kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Analysis of
>> Saakshii, Jiiva And Iswara
>> Based on
>> Vichaarasaagara of Nischaladaasa - VI
>> Coming back to the
>> Vichara Saagara text, objector in the text or purvapakshi is making a
>> of taking saakshii as the vishiShTa chaitanyam than upahita chaitanyam.
>> there will always be mixture that involves aatma + anaatmaa or ahankaara
>> in all
>> transactions. aatma can exist by itself but cannot communicate or transact.
>> anaatma can neither exist nor can transact without the support of aatma.
>> VishiShTa chaitanyam is one with visheshaNam or qualifications. Aatmaa or
>> saakshii being Brahman cannot have any visheshaNam or attributes. Hence all
>> attributes belong to anaatma and in this case to ahankaara. All our
>> glorifying our qualifications, corresponds to anaatma or ahankaara or ego.
>> the objector says saakshii knows only one mind and not many minds, the
>> statement itself is incorrect. Saakshii just illumines all the minds and
>> knows no mind. All the knowing takes
>> place with the mind, in the mind and by the mind only, as we discussed
>> that the subject-object duality that arises in the mind. Any knowledge
>> dis-covery or removing cover of ignorance using an appropriate pramANa.
>> jnaani and ajnaani are with reference to the mind only, since it is the
>> that has ignorance and it is that ignorant mind that gains the knowledge.
>> Saakshii just illumines both the ignorant mind as well as mind with
>> There are no jnaani or ajnaani at Saakshii level.
>> Saakshii is called
>> upahita chaitanyam and jiiva is vishiShTa chaitanyam. Mind is an important
>> factor here for both jnaani and ajnaani. Nischaladaasa calls the mind as
>> vyaavartakaH – revealer of the chaitanyam, just as moon is vyaavarthaka of
>> sunlight as it reveals the presence of sunlight where the moon is. In the
>> process of revealing, it is excluded as part of revealed but it just
>> serves as
>> instrument or upAdhi for revelation. However, if it is wrongly included by
>> ignorant as revealed entity then it is visheShaNam. Thus upAdhi and
>> are two states for the same entity. Similarly mind is revealer of
>> but it just serves as upAdhi for jnaani to know that ‘I am’ is the revealed
>> entity. In this case, the revealing knowledge also takes place in the mind
>> the jnaani only, not in saakshii.
>> Everyone claims
>> that I am a conscious entity, and say I know my mind- yet out of ignorance
>> associate the –I am – with the vishiShTa chaitanyam by including the mind
>> part of revealed, while a jnaani intellectually separates the upAdhi
>> from the revealed and claims himself to be the conscious entity excluding
>> upAdhi. Since the mixture of revealed and revealer (I am + mind or
>> are too subtle to separate, it requires a trained mind to do the
>> Separation is too subtle since the mixture is not of physical mixture but
>> mixture of entities that are ontologically of two different orders of
>> reality. This
>> separation has to be done by the mind, since misconceptions are in the
>> This is what JK (J. Krishnamurthy – for those who are familiar with his
>> writings/talks) also calls as the conditioning of the mind. In our
>> conditioned mind is vishiShTa chaitanya and unconditioned mind is upahita
>> chaitanyam. Deconditioning involves exclusion of the mind in claiming that
>> I am
>> the pure conscious-existent entity. Some call this as transcending the
>> mind. We
>> have to transcend the mind using the mind; otherwise it becomes a mindless
>> process! The subtleness of the process
>> becomes clear once it is recognized that this exclusion of the mind as
>> well as
>> the claiming that I am pure consciousness requires the mind only. Without
>> mind no realization is possible just as without the moon sunlight cannot be
>> recognized where the moon is. Akhandaakaara vRitti is nothing but constant
>> abiding in the knowledge that I am that pure consciousness by constantly
>> excluding the mind, while using the mind for this exclusion, and
>> that I am pure existence-consciousness that pervades all vRittis in the
>> NirvaNa shatakam states the same in the very first sloka ..mano
>> buddhyahamkara chittani naham……chidananda rupah shivoham shivoham. I am not
>> the mind, buddhi, ahankaara, and
>> chitta, the four-fold aspects of the mind; and my nature is pure limitless
>> consciousness and I am that auspicious entity. To remind us, this
>> statement was made using the mind by the mind and for
>> the mind.
>> Raaga and dweshaas only affect the mind, not I,
>> the saakshii. To recognize this, detachment from identification with the
>> that has raga dweshaas as impurities is required. For that detachment some
>> degree of purity of the mind is required. The purification of the mind
>> a process since impurities are accumulated by a process only. The science
>> purification or deconditioning is what Krishna calls it as yoga shaastra.
>> is where JK’s so called teaching blunders (I am using so-called since JK
>> not want to be called as a teacher, while his disciples claim themselves as
>> followers of JK’s teaching!). Purification of the mind can be done by
>> Bhakti or upaasana yoga. Yoga makes the mind integrated so that it can
>> discriminate the subtle mixture of aatma and anaatma and shift the
>> attention to
>> the self.
>> Here it is important to understand that it is
>> impossible to have a mind completely or 100% pure. It is like trying to get
>> 100% pure gold; and thermodynamically it is impossible. However, some
>> degree of
>> purity is required for the mind to detach itself or not to include itself
>> the claim that as I am a conscious entity. In Geeta Krishna says – naiva
>> kinchit karomiiti yuktho manyeta tatva vit, pasyan shRinvan ….
>> indriyaaNiidriyaartheShu vartanta iti dhaarayan, exemplifies the
>> de-identification process or de-conditioning process.
>> However we have to recognize that without the
>> mind one cannot transact in the world; the mind includes the ahankaara.
>> Shankara wrote Bhaashyaas and other prakarana granthaas there is mind and
>> ahankaara involved. He starts the text with mangala sloka only. Hence a
>> when he transacts in the world, he temporarily identifies with the mind
>> for the
>> purpose of transaction, but knows that I am never a doer or enjoyer –
>> akartaaham abhuktaaham even while doing and enjoying by the BMI can go on.
>> Krishna says: yoga yukto vishuddhaatmaa vijitaatmaa jitendriyaH, sarva
>> bhuutaatma bhuutaatmaa kurvannapi na lipyate – thus one who is abiding in
>> knowledge of I am the light of consciousness that enlivens not only this
>> but all BMIs, the actions by any or all BMI will not affect the pure
>> consciousness that I am. The reason
>> again is ontologically consciousness is of different order of reality in
>> relation to the apparent creation and products of that apparent creation
>> includes all BMIs.
>> More in the next.
>> Hari Om!
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