[Advaita-l] Paroksha to Aparoksha
v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
Thu Jun 20 05:33:15 CDT 2013
On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:
> praNAms Sri Subbu prabhuji
> Hare Krishna
> How can the Jnani 'use' the Atman for his vyavahAra?
> > vyavahAra can happen through kArya kAraNa tAdAtmya saMbhandhaH,
> brahmavAdinaH kathaM iti chet?? na, tasya tAdAtmyalakshNa
> saMbandOpapateH...And this tadAymya saMbandha not only restricted to only
> nAma & rUpa, for the nAmarUpa vyavahAra too it is equally applicable,
> because kArya what we call is nothing but kAraNa's vishesha darshana (vide
> sUtra bhAshya). sadAtmanA satyatvAbhyupagamAt.....sarvavyavahArANAM
> sarvavikArANAM cha satyatvaM...
This satyatvam is only upon negating the nAmarUpa dvandva, kriya, kAraka,
etc. The basis for this is mRttiketyEva satyam, vAchArambhaNam nAmadheyam.
It does not answer the question above.
> If it is said: 'the jnani knows that all vyavahAra 'happens' in the
> substratum that is Atman', then it is agreeable.
> > that is your interpretation of the most of the unambiguous bhAshya
> vAkya to bring in saguNa brahman...
Why should I make any efforts to 'bring in' saguNa brahman; the bhAShya is
replete with references to saguNa brahman (eg. the third adhyAya and fourth
adhyAya of the brahmasutra).
> As per shankara vedAnta, brahman (
> absolute) is abhinnanimittOpAdana kAraNa for this jagat..He is adhishtAna
> (antaryAmi) as well as 'sarvaM'. Hence shruti says satyanchAnrutancha
> satyamabhavat..sa cha bAhyalOkO nAstyasmAkaM AtmavyatiriktaH, 'sarvaM' hi
> asmAkaM AtmabhUtameva sarvasya cha vayaM Atma bhUtaH says bruhat
> shruti...Let this be aside, how can you say vyavahAra happens in the
> substratum i.e. Atman when you yourself said that Atman is nishkriya &
Simple; it is adhyasta in the substratum brahman. The adhyAsa bhAshya
*//tatraivam sati yatra yadadhyAsaH, tatkRtena doSheNa guNena vaa
aNumAtreNApi sa na sambadhyate…// [‘This being so, the locus
(Atman/Brahman) is not affected in any way either by the merits or demerits
of the things superimposed.’]
> On the contrary, it is only based on the sAkshi bhAva can there be any
> understanding about the jnAni's attitude.
> > jnAni's attitude is based on sarvAtma bhAva...samOhaM sarva bhUteshu,
> brAhmaNe gavi hastini, shunishchaiva shvapakecha paNditAH samadarshinaH,
> confirms lord in geeta.
sarvAtmabhAva is for his anusandhAna and the Atmapratipatti. But his
vyavahAra will not be possible with that bhAva. So, the dehAdi will have
to be used by him for vyavahAra. He can't go to bhikShA with the
sarvAtmabhAva knowledge. Unless kalpita, buddhipUrvaka bheda is employed
by him no vyavahAra will take place. When Shankara averred 'ato jyeShAmi
sarvAn' ('Therefore, I shall conquer all') in the Taittiriya bhashya, he
'sarvAn' are all those opponents to Advaita/vedanta dharshana. With just
sarvAtmabhAva no debate or disputation will be possible. Only samAdhi will
> Shankara brings this out in the
> last sentence of the BGB 2.16: 'You too, Arjuna, by following the
> Tattvadarshi-s, view the transformations (like sukha/duHkha, sheeta,
> mAna, apamAna, etc.) as mere appearances like mirage water and maintain
> titikShA.' This attitude is impossible without the sAkshi bhAva.
> anudvignamanAH sukheShu vigataspRhaH' ['in the wake of joy and sorrow, the
> sthitaprajna is not subjected to elation or dejection'] is impossible
> unless one remains in the sAkshi bhAva. Even the 'indriyAni
> vartante, naiva kinchit karomi'['I do nothing; it is only the interaction
> between the sense/motor organs and their respective objects'] is the
> perfect articulation of the sAkshi bhAva alone.
> > Yes, it is better for the sAdhaka-s to practice the sAkshi bhAva later
> to realize that sarvAtma bhAva, that he is that adviteeya..and which is
> also sarvabhUteshu gUdaH, sAkshi bhUta & kevalO nirguNa..vide
No. TattvadarshI of the 2.16 is not a sAdhaka.
> That Atman is akartR, abhoktR is the conviction of the jnAni. But the
> jnAni is not just the Atman;
> > he is just the Atman and nothing else..brahmaiva bhavati..after this
> realization he looks like shAreeri..dehavAniva lakshyate clarifies
> as long as a person called a jnani is alive, there is this distinction
> that is inevitable.
> > That we, the ajnAni-s, are calling, jarA maraNa is not for the jnAni
> because he has already attained that state which is beyond that birth and
> death cycle.
Then Shankara is also an ajnAni. The Upanishads talk of the death of the
jnani. Is it ajnAni?
> 'brahmavit is brahmaiva' but
> the brahmavit is also a person who continues to live in the prakrtic
> body/mind complex for a destined period.
> > Yes, we are still seeing jnAni's BMI, because we, the ajnAni-s cannot
> think beyond BMI of the jnAni.
The objection applies to Shankara and the upanishads.
> Till such fall of the body/mind all the happenings are only sAkShi bhAsya
> for the person called jnani.
> > please see above..and also yattu sarvAtmabhAvAt arvAk vAlAgramAtramapi
> anyatvena drushyate nAhamasmeeti tadavasthA avidyA...The sAkshi jnAna or
> sAkshmi bhAva what you are articulating here suffers from bedha drushti
> i.e. I am sAkshi, and I am seeing the world and its suffering as
> witness..this is avidyA because shankara says even tip of hair of anyatva
> bhAva is avidyA...But when it comes to avasthAtraya prakriya where tureeya
> is sAkshi to three avasthA it is something different..More on this later
> leisurely :-))
The above is not the correct depiction/understanding of the sAkshi of the
Vedanta. The bhAShya vAkya you cited is about the entertaining of notion
of real difference. But the jnAni's vyavahAra is based on kalpita
vyavahAra. Otherwise the jnani acharya can't even teach the disciple.
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
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