[Advaita-l] Eternal Loka
rajaramvenk at gmail.com
Mon Oct 29 17:32:34 CDT 2012
I am not convinced. My comments / questions inset.
On Monday, October 29, 2012, V Subrahmanian wrote:
> . However, after a person has
> had the aparoksha jnanam, in case his purvakarma is so strong, puNya-wise,
> he gets those bodies/posts that bring with them all the enjoyments attached
> to them. Also, even an ajnAni Indira is said to have become enlightened.
> When this happens, till such time as he continues in that life/post, he
> will enjoy all that is destined for him. Again, for example, the
> Mundakopanishad 3.1.10
> यं यं लोकं मनसा संविभाति विशुद्धसत्त्वः कामयते यांश्च कामान् |
> तं तं लोकं जयते तांश्च कामांस्तस्मादात्मज्ञं ह्यर्चयेत् *भूतिकामः* ||१०||
> where it is said that an enlightened one can materialize for either himself
> or for others those worlds (enjoyments) that he wishes to.
RV: For an enlightened one in Advaitam, there is no other and no desire.
So, how it possible to materialise either for himself or the other? There
is no matter also.
> All this can happen only when he has the body-mind-apparatus. When in
> moksha he is brahman alone: ब्रह्मैव भवति as per this Upanishad, there is
> no way there can be a body, mind, etc. apparatus. Brahman has none of
> these. The Upanishad teaches Brahman as ekam, eva, adviteeyam.
RV: Ishwara, in Advaita, does not have body or mind. But he is able to
manifest the entire jagat. The body of the Ishwara during an avatara or
svatambu is not due to any karma. So, it is possible to have a body that is
not dependent on karma. And it is possible to act without a body.
> the Upanishads do not hold out the moksha purushartha as something that is
> full of merry-making in the company of women, eating, dancing, etc. A
> person who has developed great vairagya for all these alone engages in
> serious sadhana for moksha. It would be illogical on the part of the
> Upanishad/s to teach/hold out these enjoyments as the goal of moksha.
RV: . This enjoyment is not with 72 virgins. It is participation in the
divine Krishna Lila (janma karma ca me divyam evam yo vetti tattvatah..).
Even atmaramas are attracted to Hari. This is admitted by Sridhara Swami
and Madhusudana. Even Sadasiva Brahmendral and Bhogendral relished Krishna
and Rama Lila
> Also, for any enjoyments to take place, there have to be 'others'.
RV: Why? The Lord does not have any other person but enjoys. Even in
loukika, we say "I enjoyed myself". Hari Himself appears as Gopis, Vyasa,
Suka, Narada etc. as stated in SBh last chapter.
> Thus, purely owing to one's unspent extraordinary puNya alone one can be
> said to be enjoying the company of women, merry-making, laughing, singing,
> eating, etc. in any divine colonies. The Upanishadic moksha does not admit
> of any dvaita whatsoever in moksha. A travel from dvaita in bondage to
> dvaita in liberation is not the message of the Upanishads. From finitude to
> infinity is the way of the Upanishad. 'asato mA sad gamaya, tamaso mA
> jyotirgamaya, mRtyormA amRtam gamaya.' The Kathopanishad specifcally
> teaches 'he who believes nAnAtvam to be real will go from mRtyu to mRtyu.'
> and that 'there is no naanAtvam whatsoever.' So, to carry over duality to
> moksha is the last thing the Upanishad would be doing.
RV: There is no duality between shakti and shaktimaan. The Lord and His
pure devotees are one.
> That is why Shankara comments in the Chandogya Up.8.12.3 that these
> enjoyments are had by those enlightened ones *as I*ndra, etc. in
> svarga/brahma loka etc. The Anandagiri and Narendrapuri glosses are clear
> on this. There is no forced Advaita-friendly interpretation of the
> mantra. The commentary gives an alternative meaning too: since all joys
> are already only manifestations of the Brahmaananda and therefore are 'in'
> Brahman, the enlightened one who becomes Brahman, becomes all this joys
> too, figuratively. The BG 2.46
> यावानर्थ उदपाने सर्वतः सम्प्लुतोदके ।
> तावान्सर्वेषु वेदेषु ब्राह्मणस्य विजानतः ॥
> भावार्थ *:* सब ओर से परिपूर्ण जलाशय के प्राप्त हो जाने पर छोटे जलाशय में
> मनुष्य का जितना प्रयोजन रहता है, ब्रह्म को तत्व से जानने वाले ब्राह्मण का
> समस्त वेदों में उतना ही प्रयोजन रह जाता है॥46॥
> shows that he who has known the Ultimate has 'everything' within him and
> does not need to seek to fulfill them 'outside' him by the means of the
RV: But as nothing really exists, the statement everything is him becomes
nothing in him.
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