[Advaita-l] Ishwara Turiya?

Ramesh Krishnamurthy rkmurthy at gmail.com
Fri Mar 9 14:28:58 CST 2012

To add to Vidyasankar's beautiful response, the avasthAtraya from the
standpoint of the individual have their counterparts from the
standpoint of the samaShTi.

Specifically, the state of deep sleep is one where there is no
subject-object division but where avidyA alone remains sAkShIvedya. In
upAdhi terms, while the jAgrat and svapna states are conditioned by
kAraNatvam as well as kAryatvam, the deep sleep state is conditioned
by kAraNatvam alone. Its "cosmic" equivalent is mAyA-shabalita brahman
(this is what is usually termed Ishvara) in an unmanifest sense. In
other words, the manifest jagat corresponds to the jAgrat and svapna
states, whereas the unmanifest jagat (wherein diversity may be said to
exist in potential form) corresponds to the deep sleep state.

Now to respond to some specific points:

On 9 March 2012 17:48, Rajaram Venkataramani <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
<< You would agree that even before creation and after destruction,
Saguna Brahman used synonymously with Ishwara exists. We (and sastras)
ascribe omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, creatorship etc. to
Him. This is tatastha lakshana that is negated in the absolute sense
in the BSB. But Saguna Brahman is not negated because  Ishwara has no
origin or death even as per Advaita.>>

You have accepted above that guNa-s (such as sarvaj~natvam,
jagatkAraNatvam, etc) are negated. When all guNa-s are negated, what
remains is nirguNa/ nirvisheSha brahman ( = Atman). It makes no sense
to speak of saguNa brahman when all guNa-s have been negated.

<< Also, Maya, His power that is non- different from Him,is never
negated. The viseshas manifested from the the trigunatmika Maya has
apparent origin and destruction but not the trigunatmika Maya

As pointed out earlier, mAyA/avidyA is meaningful only upto the 3rd
pAda (deep sleep). In a cosmic sense, the 3rd state is the one where
the jagat may be said to exist in unmanifest potential form, i.e. as
mAyA-shabalita brahman.

A study of the mANDUkya 5th and 6th mantra-s will give a clear
understanding of this point. mAyA is meaningful so long as one accepts
at least a causal status (kAraNatvam) for Ishvara. Its vyaShTi
equivalent is deep sleep where avidyA remains sAkShIvedya. When even
this causal status is negated, what remains is shuddha chaitanya ( =
Atman or nirvisheSha brahman)

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