[Advaita-l] Entities in liberated state
sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com
Mon Oct 24 14:41:15 CDT 2011
To be multiple knowers there has to difference between the knowers. Two absolutely identical entities simply cannot exist separately, when time, space and all dimensions are the same. "Prajnanam Brahma" does convey that the Brahman has the Awareess. The souls are not different from Ishvara so also the Ishvara is not different from Brahman. Even from Sankhya and Yoga the Ishvara is a special person, who is not affected by Prakriti. When concentrating on Ishvara the soul gets freedom from the Prakriti, ie. it is no longer affected by Prakriti then there is no difference between that liberated soul and Ishvara as both are unaffected by Prakriti and so there cannot be any rexistence of the liberated souls as separate from the Ishvara, who also cannot be separate from Brahman. The Veda does permit deductive logic as Paroksha jnana is encouraged by Veda.
From: Rajaram Venkataramani <rajaramvenk at gmail.com>
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Entities in liberated state
Who knows I am Brahman in the case of a Jnani? It cannot be the body because
it is not a knower. It cannot be the mind because any conviction that arises
in the mind is temporary and not perceived in deep sleep. Who knows I am
Brahman in the case of Ishwara? It cannot be the body or mind because He has
neither. The knowers of Brahman cannot be one unless the knower is Brahman
itself. But Brahman is neither a knower nor otherwise. So, there arises the
contingency of there being multiple knowers in the transcendenntal state .
2011/10/24 श्रीमल्ललितालालितः <lalitaalaalitah at gmail.com>
> *श्रीमल्ललितालालितः <http://www.lalitaalaalitah.com>
> lalitAlAlitaH <http://about.me/lalitaalaalitah/bio>*
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 23:30, Rajaram Venkataramani
> <rajaramvenk at gmail.com>wrote:
> > If a jnani becomes Brahman
> Pot can't become cloth.
> So, it appears that you are saying 'knowing real nature' = becoming.
> *I am not saying but the upanishad - sa yo ha vai tat paramam brahma veda
> brahmaiva bhavati (Mu.Up 3.1.9)*
> > but not Isvara,
> If a mortal can know,
> then how is it not possible for Ishvara ?
> His laxaNa-s say that he is never devoid of knowledge. So, he is always
> brahman according to above definition.
> *Does the mortal know? The body cannot. The mind can think I am Brahman
> but only until deep sleep which destroys its modifications in the form of
> thought. *
> > then there is a contingency
> > that there are multiple entities (Isvara and Brahman) in the liberated
> > or transcendental state.
> Are you talking for a-mukats or mukta-s ?
> If first, then sure there are many.
> If for second, then no. Because existence of many is because of mAyA and
> that is destroyed.
> Again, what do you mean by 'liberate or transcendental state' ?
> State of what ?
> Not of body, it dies and hence no liberation for it is possible.
> Not of mind, it is also a product of aGYAna.
*I am talking about the state of jiva because it is said to be bonded (e.g.
me) or liberated (e.g. janaka). *
> Or Isvara, who can bestow liberation, is not
> > liberated because He is different from Brahman.
> bestow liberation ?
> If, 'not liberated' = 'doesn't know himself brahman', then no. He always
*But He is different from a jnani, who also knows I am Brahman. Therefore,
there are two.*
> How is this resolved?
> I don't see any problem.
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