[Advaita-l] On the forms of Guru

V Subrahmanian v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
Wed Mar 10 03:51:49 CST 2010

(This post is re-sent now as the earlier dispatch got  posted partially)

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 3:16 PM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>wrote:

> With a view to present the scriptural position on some issues raised in
> this reply of Sri Anbu, I am venturing despite Sri Vidyashankar's decision
> to close this exchange:
> My observations are within [  ]
> On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 11:54 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> "In your position, a jnAnI lives, breathes, eats, sleeps, talks,
>> walks and teaches in a physical body, but all of this is without
>> a mind at all. "
>> Sorry, this is not my position for nothing positive can be said of
>> Brahman.
>> A gnyaani is Brahman.  He is simply anirvachaneeya and I have said this
>> before.   One may or may not need the mind to know that he is Brahman (and
>> I
>> have said that it is actually an impediment) but definitely won't keep the
>> mind or anything else when he knows he is Brahman.
> [There is no option involved in the instrumentality of the mind in knowing
> that one is Brahman.  All the Upanishads, Lord Krishna and Sri
> Shankaracharya have unequivocally taught that only through the mind that is
> adequately cultivated one can know the Ultimate Truth of his self. Also, as
> per the above authorities, the jnani has no freedom to do away with the mind
> apparatus; it is impossible for him to do that. The reason for this is
> stated in the next section.]
>>  What was once his body before his realization operates under the spell of
>> Easwara even though the person has broken the mutual superimposition.  That
>> is the praaptham with regard to the body.  Only because it, the body, is
>> operating the entity is
>> called Jeevan Muktha.  If the body had dropped he would be vidhEha muktha.
> [In the Gita, the verse 13.20 says:
> कार्यकरणकर्तृत्वे हेतुः प्रकृतिरुच्यते ।
> पुरुषः सुखदुःखानां भोकृत्वे हेतुरुच्यते ॥
> A summary of the Bhashyam : // 'kAryam' is the physical body and 'karaNam'
> refers to the thirteen instruments: five sense organs, five motor organs,
> Manas, Buddhi and ahamkAra.  The five elements (bhUtas) which build up the
> body, and the five sense-objects which are the emanations of PrakRti as
> mentioned above are included in the term 'kAryam' and all qualities such as
> pleasure, pain and delusion which are born of PrakRti are included under the
> term 'instruments', since those qualities are seated in the instruments, the
> senses.  In the production of the physical body, of the senses and their
> sensations, PrakRti is said to be the cause, for, it generates them all.
> Thus, as producing the physical body AND THE SENSES (13 in number), PrakRti
> is the cause of samsara.//
> From tha above summary we understand that the physical body is not a
> stand-alone; the senses, thirteen in number, which include the manas, buddhi
> and ahankara, are not a stand-alone;  It is a package presented by PrakRti,
> as a result of the jiva's karma.  It is impossible to separate the
> mind/buddhi/ahankara from this prakRti-given package, along with the
> physical body.  According to Shankaracharya, it is this kArya-karaNa
> sanghAta (a word often used in the commentarial literature), that is termed
> 'prArabdham' or rather the apparatus with which the prArabdha karma bhoga
> takes place.
> Since a Jnani is undoubtedly admitted to undergo the praarabdha karma, only
> by upabhoga, as per a specific Brahma Sutra and Shankara's reiteration in
> several Bhashyams, this physical body-sesnse organs-mind-buddhi-ahankara
> package is essential for this bhoga.  It is quite another matter that the
> Jnani has disidentified from this package, given up the abhimAna, which is
> what Realization is, but for the bhoga of the prArabdha, this package has to
> be there mandatorily.  For example, bodily disease requires the availability
> of the physical body.  For experiencing maana, apamaana, sukha, duHkha, etc.
> the mind apparatus is essential.  Without this package there is no meaning
> in the scripture talking about praarabdha karma bhoga for the Jnani.  This
> possition of the Scripture and Bhagavatpada is unassailable.  If anyone
> teaches otherwise, it has to be viewed as un-traditional, असंप्रदायम्, and
> rejected, as per the dictates of Shankaracharya in the Gita bhashya.
> When the prArabdha karma expires, the body-mind package undergoes death and
> the disintegration of the package takes place in the manner the Shruti has
> taught.  The entire package of the body-mind complex is a product of the
> five bhUta-s and upon disintegration, they attain to their respective causal
> elements.  ]
>> A Jeevan Muktha is a total asangan and adhvitheeyan.  Who can say what are
>> and what are not his powers?  Tell me if any Bhaashya or Primary Texts are
>> to be quoted to say this.
> [The Mundaka Upanishad teaches in mantra 3.1.10:
> यं यं लोकं* मनसा संविभाति* विशुद्धसत्त्वः कामयते यांश्च कामान् ।
> तं तं लोकं जयते तांश्च कामांस्तस्मादात्मज्ञं ह्यर्चयेद् भूतिकामः ॥
> // Whatever world a man of pure understanding (Jnani) envisages in his mind
> and whatever desires he cherishes, that world he conquers and those desires
> he obtains, Therefore let everyone who wants prosperity worship the man who
> knows the Self.//
> Shankara comments: //  Any world whichsoever, such as the world of manes,
> etc. (pitRs, etc.) that the man of pure mind, the man freed from mental
> afflictions (klesha) the Knower of the Self, Jnani,* wishes for with the
> mind, thinking, *'Let this be mine or for somebody else', and those
> enjoyable things that he covets, he wins, gets, those very worlds and those
> enjoyable things that are wished for.  Since the wishes of the enlightened
> man are infallible, therefore, one who hankers after prosperity should
> worship, through washing of feet, service, salutation, etc. the Jnani, who
> is purified in mind by virtue of his knowledge of the Atman. Therefore such
> a one, the Jnani,  is certainly adorable. //
> Two features stand out in this mantra:  1. The word 'मनसा’ is present in
> the mantra which means 'by/with the mind' in the instrumental, तृतीया,
> case.  This is the undisputable Scriptural evidence for the Jnani continuing
> with the mind. The mantra says that not only does the Jnani have a mind, he
> uses it too.  Shankara comments for the words मन्सा संविभाति thus: मनसा
> संकल्पयति, मह्यं अन्यस्मै वा...By saying so Shankara confirms that not only
> does the Jnani have a mind, he 'desires', wishes, and that the Jnani has an
> ahankAra too:  the word मह्यं  ' for me' shows this.
> 2. The Jnani has great powers. He can grant anyone anything that is within
> the confines of Dharma and Ishwara's dispensation.
> Shankaracharya says about the Jivan mukta in the Shivanandalahari:
> Sivaanandalahari - 81कंचित्काल-मुमामहेश भवत: पादारविन्दार्चनै:
> कंचिद्ध्यान-समाधिभिश्‍च नतिभि: कंचित् कथाकर्णनै: ।
> कंचित् कंचिदवेक्षणैश्‍च नुतिभि: कंचिद्दशामीदृशीं
> य: प्राप्नोति मुदा त्वदीर्पित-मना जीवन् स मुक्‍त: खलु ॥ ८१ ॥
> kaMchitkAla-mumAmaheSa Bavata: pAdAravindArchanai:
> kaMchiddhyAna-samAdhiBiScha natiBi: kaMchit kathAkarNanai: |
> kaMchit kaMchidavekShaNaiScha nutiBi: kaMchiddaSAmIdRuSIM
> ya: prApnoti mudA tvadIrpita-manA jIvan sa muk^ta: khalu || 81 ||
> Oh Uma Mahesvara ! one who does archana to your holy feet for sometime,
> meditation and samadhi for sometime, some worship, spend some time in
> hearing the stories of Lord Shiva, seeing you, does some pryaers, and with
> joy surrenders his mind to you and attains such a state will attain
> liberation even while living with the body.//
> One can easily appreciate that each one of the 'activities' of this Jivan mukta involves the
> mind mandatorily along with the other instruments depending upon the kind of devotional
> act  he is engaged at that time.]
>> Agnyaanis see and describe the gnyaanis in their own fancy.  That is what
>> the agnyaanis do.
> [ The Jnani has been described elaborately by the Upanishads, Lord Krishna
> in the Gita, Veda Vyasa in the Mahabharata and Shankaracharya in His
> innumerable works.  All these Brahmavidyaa Acharyas will have to be grouped
> under 'ajnAni-s' for their 'fault' of seeing and describing Jnani-s.]
> The discussion in this thread offered a lot of opportunity to all of us to
> revisit the canonical works of Vedanta and discuss a number of issues.  I
> thank all the members who participated in this discussion by raising
> questions, objections, providing answers, etc.  In this group-chintanam
> there is absolutely no room for rancour or any ill feelings.  In an old post
> Sri Jaladhar Vyas had remarked that by raising objections against Advaita
> the Dvaitins have indeed done a great favour: Advaitins applied themselves
> with greater fervor to the study and analysis of their own works and emerged
> adding even more splendour to Advaita.
> Om Tat Sat

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