[Advaita-l] FW: Avidya, Jnanis and SSS' views

[Bhaskar YR]

sAshtAnga praNAms Sri Vidya prabhuji
Hare Krishna

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Bhaskar,m I will keep my response brief and pertinent to only a couple of 
points.
The rest has already been said and all that remains to be done is to read 
the
bhAshya-s carefully.

bhaskar :

First, my apologies for the very belated reply..I was out of station last 
fortnight...

Thanks a lot for your patience & time prabhuji.  It is my great fortune 
that you are giving your kind attention to my ramblings.  For your kind 
information, I've been studying shankara bhAshya atleast daily two hours 
with the Kannada commentary by my parama guruji Sri SSS..and Whenever I 
get any doubt, immediately I call my guruji-s (Mattur Sri Ashwatha 
Narayana Avadhani & Sri ChandramouLi avadhAni ( now he took saNyAsa and 
became Sri advayaanandendra Saraswati))for clarification.  And ofcourse, 
your goodself & Sri Vyas prabhuji will always be there on cybernet to help 
me. 


Sri Vidya prabhuji :

That is one of the reasons why I pointed to bRhadAraNyaka bhAshya 4.4.1
onwards. Please read the bhAshya on the vAkya "vijnAya prajnAM kurvIta" to
see how dhyAna etc are sAdhana for nirguNa brahma jnAna also. Also see
numerous references in the gItAbhAshya where dhyAna-yoga is described as
samyag-darSanasya antaranga.

bhaskar :

I am not denying the efficacy of the dhyAna in the advaita sAdhana 
prabhuji..But dhyAna what is explained in the yOga sUtra of patanjali is 
something different from vedic dhyAna...vaidikameva tatra jnAnaM dhyAnaM 
cha clarifies shankara in sUtra bhAshya. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

As such, your inference about jnAna of saguNa brahman is quite unwarranted
in the muNDaka reference to brahmavid-varishTha.

bhaskar :

Even after exchange of several mails, I am failed to see any reasonable 
justification to treat varishTha here is supreme among other absolute 
brahma jnAni-s...While we can say varishTa here is absolute brahma jnAni, 
who is THE BEST among other brahma jnAni-s, it is hard to pick the 
gradations in absolute brahma nishTa-s.  It is simply because vara & 
variya type of absolute brahma jnAnis' absence is quite conspicuous in 
shankara bhAshya.  That is what Sri Subbu prabhuji also confirmed in one 
of his mails & said there cannot be 'partial' brahma jnAna. 

 


> bhaskar :
> 
> Here jnAnOtpatti is nothing but ajnAna nivrutti only prabhuji...till we 
> get that ajnAna nivrutti we have to follow the shAstra & AchAryOpadesha 
> prabhuji...As you know, to get parOksha jnAna also shAstra is the 
> pramANa...and certain sAdhana mArga prescribed for this. So, the 
> conversion here is realizing what is already there. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

It is Sankara bhagavatpAda himself who talks of jnAna-pravRtti-daurbalya 
after
jnAnotpatti. Inasmuch as you cannot conceive of jnAna-pravRtti-daurbalya
without talking of jnAna-daurbalya 

bhaskar :

Again, I am still finding it hard to understand pravrutti daurbalya when 
the jnAna is intact!!??  Dont you think prabhuji it is as good as saying : 
 " he is a wise man  but his attitude & activities are nothing but 
insanity!!"  prabhuji, would you please clarify this long standing doubt 
in a simple language with some practical examples.  That would be of great 
help to me. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

and so long as you hold that there is only either jnAna (once its utpatti 
has happened) or ajnAna, 

bhaskar :

There exists either jnAna or ajnAna (especially in ONE vishaya) in ONE 
person  is not my choice of words prabhuji, it is shankara himself says 
that !! ekasmin purushe ete ekadaiva na saha 
saMbadhyeyAtAmityarthaH...yathA shuktikAyAM rajatashukti jnAne ekasya 
purushasya..

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

you are at best misunderstanding his stand on jnAna-pravRtti-daurbalya 
after samyag-jnAna-prApti 
or you are at worst holding that he is self-contradictory. You can take 
your pick.

bhaskar :

I am not able to get it!!  if the person's pravrutti daurbalya has no 
bearing on his jnAna (this is what your goodself insisting is it not??), 
how can we relate the pravrutti daurbalya with either jnAna or ajnAna ??!! 
 As you know even in my wildest dreams I would not say shankara is 
contradicting himself in siddhAnta pratipAdana..So, IMO, jnAna pravrutti 
daurbalyaM even after samyag jnAna prApti needs some careful consideration 
in light of above bhAshya vAkya & absence of vipareeta pratyaya in the 
jnAni. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Finally, pray where does this happen, the realization of what is already 
there?
In the self or in the mind? You hold further on that the mind has only 
figuratively
become one with the Atman. To what does "figurative" apply? To the mind or 
to
the becoming? If it applies to the mind, then there are still two - self 
and mind,
because the mind still persists as a second vastu. If it applies to the 
becoming,
either there are still two, self and mind, because the becoming is only 
figurative
or there is only the mind, which itself sees itself as having always been 
the self.
Are you sure that is what the real self is - the purified mind? How can 
this be
brahman, the sarvajna, sarvavyApaka, sarvAntaryAmI, sarvAtmA?

bhaskar :

Kindly pardon me prabhuji.  I am first time feeling that your sentences 
are confusing to me prabhuji, I know you are clear in your thoughts but I 
am not able to catch your thoughts/objections with same frequency. Anyway, 
here is what shankara says in sUtra bhAshya :  The jeeva is awake, when 
owning to contact of the conditioning factors of the nature of 
modifications of the mind, he identifies himself with them.  As qualified 
by their impressions, he sees dreams and is then denoted by the word, 
'mind'.  When both these upAdhi-s disappear, he has no distinguishing 
feature and is therefore 'dissolved' AS IT WERE, into his own self, and so 
the shruti says 'it is well known that he is dissolved into his own 
self'...Though this bhAshya vAkya is about sushupti, I think it is 
relevant here with regard to figurative merging of MIND with Atman.  What 
I am trying to say here prabhuji, the socalled jeeva, his body, mind & 
intellect (upAdhi-s) has only a seeming existence of its own as shankara 
puts it 'AbhAsa eva'..when jnAni realizes his savrAtma bhAva & 
sarvavyApakatva his mind is no more an individual mind it dissolves (as 
if) in that one without second Atman.  It does not mean that jnAni had a 
mind like thing in the pre-realization period & it would vanish in thin 
air in the period of post-realization..It is the realization that he 
was/is/will always be ashareeri & his jnAna is NOT upAdhi paricchinna 
parimita jnAna.

with regard to your clarifications on chitta vrutti nirOdha, jnAna 
pravrutti daurbalyaM in geeta I shall check those references in detail & 
would comeback if any clarification needed prabhuji.


Regards,
Vidyasankar

Your humble servant
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar