[Advaita-l] mithyA from archives
prem d p
prem_d_p at yahoo.co.in
Sun Nov 11 12:30:35 CST 2007
dear sri bhaskar,
i am glad you have posted it again. it gives me a second chance to
discuss it with you! also it gives me the opporunity to clarify, to
myself and others, my earlier response to sri vinayaka's post on 'mandukya'.
excerpts from your post is within quotes, below.
'in summary we can say, in this world we have this body & in body we
are having senses through them we are*seeing/sensing* this
world.........what is that actually we are calling as jagat world
here?? is it not a big bag of bodies, senses, minds, intellects,
life forces (prANa vAyu), Ego-s (ahaM), paNcha mahAbhUta-s
(five primordial eliments)............If we cannot bifurcate body/senses &
the world, then we have to say *a* part of the world
(body & senses) is looking at *another* part of the same world.'
an interesting point to note in this context is the process of
'panchikaranam'. the subtle body (vyashti & samashti) is in the
non-panchikrutha state (or pre-panchikrutha) and the external world
is made of elements which are the result of panchikaranam of the
subtle elements. what does this tell me ?.....it tells me that the
process of 'seeing' is an act of resolving the external world into
its pre-panchikrutha state...a type of 'de-construction', now if
mere perception is de-construction then what is the status of
'construction' or 'creation' in terms of being real! so, is
perception construction or de-construction? could it be both?
'......as we all know it is an axiomatic statement that the subject
should be always different from the object, to get the objective
knowledge of the external objects.'
i think you are very right in inferring that perfect objectivity
implies absolute disparateness of Seer and Seen. however it is also
correct to say that only similar natures can engage each other or get
into mutual-interaction (empirical) and thus be 'subject to the
phenomena'. thus we have the pairs, knowledge vs. ignorance,
veda vs. nama-rupa, sense-organs vs. physical objects etc.
'OK, one may argue our Atman or the true self which is beyond
this names & forms of world is *seeing* this world!! But again,
the question is how can he *see* the world?? does he has body &
senses?? if yes, which are those body & senses??'
once it is admited that phenomena is the product of ignorance, is it
not evident that the both the senses seated in the body and the
objects are equally products of ignorance, and even the question
'how atma can see'is also with reference to this context which is
patently false and hence it begets the equally 'false' answer that
the panchakoshas are themselves the body of atma and the seat of its
organs of perception.
'is it aprAkrutik (unnatural) set of body & senses??
(like our dualists assert!!)'
i am curious to know what this concept is?
'.......when we realise the true nature the duality of subject -
object will get sublated & in that state how can one *see* with
what??........It may be noted here shankara makes it clear here that
*this state is NOT a vyavahAra abhAva* state...it is purely an
bhaskar-ji, could you please elaborate on this shankara quote, is it
talking about abhAva of vyavahara or abhAva within vyavahara? what is
meant by 'avagati jnAna'?
'........(chandogya) shruti asserts further in 6-8-1 (kindly see the
original sanskrit text) In sushupti when this jIva bhAva merged in
brahman there is no egoity & he is then verily dissolved into his own
self. IN THIS STATE OUR SO CALLED WORLD IS NOT THERE BUT YOU
ARE THERE VERY MUCH IN YOUR TRUE NATURE...and this true nature of
ours is trikAla abhAditaM,hence really real.'
however also note that the same jiva who goes into the deep sleep
state also wakes up from it, jiva 'carries' the latencies
from this shore of deep sleep to the other shore of deep sleep. who
is the sleeper here, it cannot be the soul which is ever awake.
as i have commented in my response to the last post by sri vinayaka,
it is perhaps correct to assume that waking, dream, and deep sleep
are all 'constructed' states sustained only by means of the function
of manas. turiya, the substratum alone is really real.
there are two relevant points of view with respect to the deep sleep
state, the relevance springing forth from the recognition of the
utilities of the two points of view.
to elaborate further, first view is from the ignorant jiva's conception
of existence which tanslates in his terms into 'continuity', his concept
of his limited existence, aided by memory and ideas of time. it is also
worth noting that the nature of external world is such that the time
is measured and synchronized by mutual determination between events.
this leads to the inference of the causal bija state, which idea is
supported by the samashti manas. (i fully appreciate that, bhaskar-ji,
you have pointed out how the reference to this is always in the past tense.)
it is interesting to note that the ignorance itself is beginningless,
and its continuity is co-existent with Time. but by the same token,
it may also be equally admitted that ignorance need not continue
beyond time, and time is suspended for the sleeper.
i must admit that while writing this i also realize that, though i have
emphasized the concept of continuity in vyavahara, brahman or turiya is
a sufficient substratum for the phenomena and this certainly sustains
all our intuitions of continuity of existence. and the brahman's being
the only substratum is used to equally refute both 'shunyata vada'
and 'reality of phenomena'.
the second view point is from the astounding yet valid opportunity it
provides the jiva in its quest to unravel the mystery of Existence.
deep sleep is pointed out to him by sruti as the 'state' in which the
the limits of maya is offered up for his intellectual comprehension.
ie. deep sleep is a state where the phenomenality approaches and merges
into the Absolute before the very eyes of jiva and yet unrecognized by him.
undoubtedly, the atma of deep sleep is turiya.
the analysis of deep sleep is his opportunity to anticipate the
'co-existence' of states with liberation or jivanmukti. (please note
that sruti do not point to sleep as a means of liberation, unless
it be a sadhana which continues across all the states.)
'...It is through our ignorance we are dividing the undivided brahman
& thinking brahman has kAraNa (cause) & kArya (effect) difference.'
no doubt. this is advaita.
'Unless you identify yourself with body & senses *you cannot* see the
world ...no matter whether it is (world..the kArya brahman) brahman
itself or otherwise.'
i prefer to look upon this as having two instances, one the obvious
case of samadhi, the other the 'waking/dream/sleep' states of the
jivanmukta. for the jivanmukta even in waking state the sublation
takes place in the form of sacrifice at each level/layer from
external to the inner being (gita speaks of yajna of the objects in
the senses...etc., i am not sure whether my extrapolation of that to
the jivanmukta is justified....please do comment).
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