[Advaita-l] Re: Exit of soul (Badisa)
badisa66 at yahoo.com
Tue Aug 30 04:44:48 CDT 2005
*Shyam: same as above, from the viewpoint of original consciousness, we are all pervasive as of now. But from the standpoint of reflected consciousness, we are very limited (compared to Iswara), due to the inferior medium (the body)*
Badisa: Please quote references from Upanishads, or Brahmasutra or Bhagawad Gita in this regard. For the same entity, you cannot say that it is all pervasive on one side and finite on the other side at the same time. If it is all pervasive from the view point of original consciousness, then it should be so at all the times. But, there are many references in Upanishads, Gita tec scriptures, which prove finiteness of soul before salvation. I would like to give you one for instance. The soul that follows the path of Gita 8/24 is said to attain salvation in later stages. This soul is said to be finite, based on the fact that amanav purush comes to it from Brahma Lok (BL) in order to guide it to BL(Ch. Up. 4.15.5 & Ch. Up. 5.10.2 & Br. Up. 6.2.15). If you think that the soul is all pervasive, then in that case, how the amnav purush could come to the soul? How can he guide the soul to BL if the soul is all pervasive? Therefore, the conclusion is that the soul before salvation is finite,
and it will be infinite at salvation. Unlike you, I am not saying that the soul is both finite and infinite at the same time. My understanding is based on sruti support.
*Shyam: Your understanding is incorrect here. When a person dies, the soul doesn't exit. Only the sukshma sarira(the subtle body) and the reflected consciousness exit the physical body or gross body. In the gross body, original consciousness is still there, since it is all pervasive. But the reflected consciousness which is reflected in the mind also exits, since the mind is located in the subtle body.*
Badisa: You need to support your argument in light of some references from Upanishads, or Brahmasutra or Gita. Sri Shankara bhasyam for Brahmasutra (BS) 4.2.18 says that the soul of a knower of the Brahman after death follows the rays of the sun. Thereafter, the soul moves from one place to another before being guided to Brahma Lok by amanav purush. All these clearly and conclusively prove that the soul is finite and that it is not all pervasive at that point of time. You are saying that soul does not exit upon the death of the body. It means that you are saying exactly opposite to what BS and thus supported sruti texts say in this regard. Since your understanding is contradicting with sruti texts and BS, your understanding is wrong. Also check sri Shankar bhasyam for Gita 15/8 sloka. Sri Shankara says, When the jiva (soul) is to leave the body, then, he draws round himself the senses and the manas. When he (soul) leaves a former body and enters another, he does so
.. It means that
at the time of death, the soul, along with senses and manas, leaves the body and enters into another. You are saying that soul does not exit upon the death of the body. If the soul does not exit, then why Lord Krishna in this Gita sloka would say the exit of soul at the time of death? Why sri Shankara would also confirm the exit of soul from the body at death? In view of this reference, it is clear that you are expressing opinion which is quite opposite to what this Gita sloka is saying. Since your understanding is contradicting with this Gita sloka, your belief that soul does not exit at the time of death is wrong. These references are quite enough to refute your understanding on this topic. There are so many such references found in various sruti texts. I request you to look BS 4th chapter in this regard. Also please see Gita 9/21 for movement of soul from one place to another. I request you to go through them thoroughly and judge honestly for yourself, whose understanding is
incorrect in this regard.
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