[Advaita-l] Re: moksha (Badisa)

ramesh badisa badisa66 at yahoo.com
Tue Aug 23 04:48:49 CDT 2005



“But now it has become a chronic doubt in the minds of advaita vEdAnta followers that whether ultimate realization of jnAni happens with body or after falling of that body??”


Badisa: Realization of gyanam happens with body, but it is not called salvation in absolute sense. The soul still has subtle body with organs, mind exists, all 16 kalas still exist for this gyani. These represent prakruti. When you say realization of gyani is equal to absolution salvation, then you are admitting the existence of prakruti in the state of absolute salvation. This is something unthinkable.  


“whether this jIva still identify him/herself with the body even after realizing his true nature that he is secondless brahman which is nirguNa & nirAkAra??”


Badisa: The gyani does not identify with body. But it does not mean that gyani is bodyless. Based on the fact that gyani does not identify with his body, can we argue that gyani cannot get hurt upon injury? No. Can we argue that he won’t feel the pain? No. Gyani is not a stone for not to show pain.  He also feels pain like any other normal human beings. But he faces them with smile, while others express the feelings openly. In other words, gyani shows patience. But, this should not be viewed that gyani does not feel pain. When he feels hunger, he understands that he needs to eat food. Similarly, when he is tired, he knows that he needs to rest. This is what I am saying some degree of body consciousness for gyani. The gyani realizes, I repeat again, gyani realizes that ‘he’ is ‘him’. But it does not mean that ‘he’ has become ‘him’ before death.  


“But it does not anyway mean vidEha mukti is the only ultimate

realization in primary sense and jIvanmukti is only secondary since 

jIvan mukta has the body to sustain a little portion or residue of avidyA in the form of prArabdha karma”


Badisa: There is very clear cut difference made between jivanmukti (JM) and videha mukti (VM) in Upanishads. So, I am not saying anything on my own either in a primary or secondary senses. Whatever I am saying is based on sruti texts only. From your above answer, it is clear that from your (and/or other’s) point of view, JM = VM. But what I am saying is that JM is called the state of realization only, that ‘he’ is ‘him’. For me this state is not an absolute state of salvation. Why? Because, the ‘he’ hasn’t yet become ‘him’ due to some delay, caused by PK. Even though PK is concerned to the physical body of the gyani, and realization is concerned with the atma, but based on this, it cannot be taken that ‘he’ has become ‘him’ in absolute sense before death of the physical body of the gyani. The reason for this is that the soul of the gyani is still localized in the physical body of the gyani. It is difficult to assume some limitations what so ever in the state of salvation, as the soul
 is divine in the state salvation. In other words, divine is all pervasive (in nirgun divine aspect), can create the universe and dissolve it also (in saguna divine aspect). Can we say that gyani’s soul is also all pervasive before it is released from the body? Can we say that a gyani has the ability to create or dissolve the universe? I do not believe that either you or any other list members would say ‘yes’ for these questions. Because, these are impossible things to perform on the part of gyani before death of his physical body. In that case how can we claim that gyani’s state is absolute salvation state, where atma is paramatma without limitations? Now, please do not bring examples from puranas to say that sri Viswamitra etc have shown creation of the worlds with the help of his tapas etc. I would appreciate if you could quote from any of Upanishads, Brahmasutra (BS) or Bhagawad Gita. For a moment let us forget about performing these activities by gyani. Can you provide one
 single example from the above texts to show that gyani before death can take up multiple forms like the liberated soul at Brahma Lok? In other words, I am asking the applicability of BS 4.4.15 to gyani before death, if he is divine in absolute sense. If ‘he’ is ‘him’ already before death, then all these should not be impossible things on the part of a gyani to perform. But can gyani perform them? Sri Shankara while dealing with this particular problem, posed by sutra 4.4.17, reconciles by saying that creation, dissolution etc are the subject matters of divine but not the liberated soul. Further he says the possibility of clash with many isvaras with such powers. By saying this, sri Shankara very clearly sends a message that the state of liberated soul at BL is not the state of salvation in absolute sense. Otherwise, one has to worry for the continuation of certain limitation for some lordly powers even in the state of absolute salvation. For an advaitin, it is an impossible thing to
 imagine. The proof to show that the state of liberated soul at BL is not the state of salvation in absolute sense can also be seen from the fact of sutra’s declaration about attainment of higher regions for liberated souls at BL along with Lord Brahma, as mentioned in sutra 4.3.10. Attainment of higher regions itself indicates that the level Brahma Lok is not the highest level. So the question of absolute salvation at lower level is not possible from advaita’s point of view. Now, let us come down to the Earth to see the gyani’s position in this regard. The same above explanation is applicable to gyani also before death. It means that with respective to creation, dissolution of universe, gyani’s state on the Earth is comparable to the liberated soul at BL. When the state of liberated soul at BL is clearly proven to be not the state of an absolute salvation, then why can’t the same reason is applicable to gyani’s position on the Earth, who also cannot create, dissolve the universe?
 Both liberated soul and gyani show finite location – not all pervasive nature. Both cannot create or dissolve the universe. In case of liberated soul, we say that his is not absolute salvation state, while in case of gyani we say his state as absolute state of salvation?  When both have subtle body, mind, 16 kalas etc why both have to be judged differently. When you say that gyani got absolute salvation before death, then you should also say that the liberated soul at BL got absolute salvation before pralaya. But, let us remind ourselves that if we say that liberated soul got absolute salvation while in BL, then, it will land the whole advaita philosophy into trouble. So, you can’t say it for a liberated soul. But, on the other hand, by saying that gyani got salvation in absolute sense before the soul is released from the body, we are also landing into trouble. But, unfortunately we are not recognizing the trouble. The trouble is that how come the gyani is unable to create, dissolve
 the universe, or be localized finitely if his state is taken as absolute salvation state. Due to all these clashes, the gyani’s state is only said to be realization. That is the reason why our sruti texts, use two different terms, namely JM and VM to denote the subtle difference between them, and most of the time we miss this. I hope we all are aware that annihilation of mind takes in two forms (sa rup and a rup). In case of a gyani, ‘sa’ rup of mind is said to be destroyed due to dawn of gyan, meaning that a rup is still present.  During the time of release from the body, this ‘a rup’ is also destroyed (Muktikopanishad, 2.8; Annapurna Up. 4.3).  This is called VM, and no gunas exist in this state, meaning that the gyani’s soul manifests as nirgun Brahman, as mentioned in Annapurnopanishad 4.3. Thus the question is that when the soul of the gyani, has subtle body, a rup of mind, 16 kalas (Pras. Up. 6.5) etc, representing prakruti, then how anybody could say that it has achieved
 absolute salvation before release from the body? This is not possible. 


Now, if you still think that JM=VM, then please let me know the answer for my below question.  If realization on the part of gyani is termed as absolute salvation, then, since in the state of salvation, the atma is paramatma in absolute sense, why the realized gyani, before death, cannot perform all the activities like saguna brahma? For example, creation of universe, dissolution of universe, assuming of multiple forms, or visiting of various lokas upon mere wish etc.  If any sruti references are shown for the possibility of these activities on the part of gyani before death, then in that case it would make very good sense to say that gyani is facing PK from vyavaharika drushti only. After all, upon waking up from the dream, the atma is paramatma, and should be able to perform all activities like saguna Brahman without any limitation. Right? But, can a gyani perform them is the question needs to be answered in absolute point of view.





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