[Advaita-l] Causal Body

kuntimaddi sadananda kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com
Thu Jun 5 07:31:02 CDT 2003

> you wrote :


In the cyclic process there is no beginning or end.  Since this
discussion is taking place in the waking state, let us give importance
to this state.  When we discuss this in your dream state we can worry
about that at that time what is the correct order! 

By the above sentence you can easily see the relative reality of each
state and the order. The knowledge, the studies, these list-serves, even
Veda-s, and pramaaNa-s are validated in the waking state only.  Hence
the conclusion that intellect part is at its highest potential in the
waking state compared to a dream state.  Otherwise, we could have
continued and resolved these issues in your dream. Experiences that I
cannot directly account for are what we called adRishhTa phala-s. - It
only means I have no knowledge of the cause.  But we also know that the
law of causation operates ruthlessly and for every effect there must be
a cause.  Hence the dream effects must have a cause, whether I can
recognize it or not.  Since intellect is in its highest potential and
available in the waking state, there is 'a will' to act - the choices of
action, and therefore types of karma-s; niyata karma-s, kaamya karma-s
and nishhiddha karma-s, prayaschitta karma-s, are all because of this
choice in action - all because of the intellect.  Hence we say the
suppressions and oppressions occur in the waking state since intellect
has the discriminative power to decide what is right and what is wrong.
Due to its discriminative faculty, it may decide that it is not
advisable to go after some desires due to values imposed by  culture,
tradition, society etc.  

It is the intellect that makes the difference between man and animal. 
Hence I said in animals the paths are preprogrammed - end and means are
pre-programmed. and  there is not much choice in their actions. But for
humans end does not justify the means.  Hence we have dharma to dictate
the course of actions and becomes the very first purushhaartha. There is
subhaashitam sloka 

   ahaara nidraa bhayamaitunamcha
   samaanyametat pashubhiH naraanaam|
   buddhirhiteshhaa adhiko visheshhaH
   buddhyaa vihiinaaH pashubiH samaanaaH||

All it says that it is intellect only that makes the difference between
the man and animal, and if he doesn’t use it he is equal to an animal.
actually may be worse.  

  What we are witnessing
> dEsha & kAla of dreaming world is entirely different from waking
> world. 

Who says that? A waker about the dream world or dreamer about the dream
world.  Shankara says - sakaale satyavat bhaati, prabhode satyasat
bhavet| As long as one is dreaming it is as real and there are no
inconsistencies. Only when we are awakened, one recognizes that the
dream is unreal. It is the judgement about the waker about the dream. 
Now does dreamer ever ask analyze the waking state but we have waker
asking the reality of the dream state- only because the questioning is
done by the intellect which is not that much available in the dream
state. The analysis is self-consistent.

> ex. if someone dream at midnight(waking time), in that dream he may
> walking
> in perspiration due to midday sun (dreaming time).  So as per his
> *dream
> clock* it is around 12 noon..now, the question is how sun light is
> there at
> mid-night..which clock is right whether it is waker's clock or
> dreamer's
> clock.. with this how can we decide that this is yEkakAlikAvasta..(
> two
> different avastas in same time)

Dreamer has his own time-space concept - He can have a baby born and
grow up to become big in just one night of the waker - just like in the
movies! But a dreamer may not feel in any inconsistencies.  

 > A dreamer does not say that these are all
> vasanAs
> of his waking world or objective-objective world or bhOga bhumi, just
> like
> waking world here also pramAtru-pramEya vyavahAra is there.  Is not it
> prabhuji..There is no way that a dreamer can recognise that he is
> dreaming
> his world & say he is only projecting the vasanas of waking world. 

Bhaskar - one can have a second order dream - a dreamer in the dream can
go to sleep and dream in that sleep and those second order dreams are
based on the first order dreams suppressions and oppressions. When he
wakes up from his second order dream, he will see the world as he left
before he went to sleep and he can give discourses that all those second
order dream experiences are not real and this waking state alone is real
due to vasana-s inherited from precious life! 

> Dreamer
> is very much *a waker* in dreaming world..he never thinks that this is
> a
> dream, I should stop this nonsense in future..

Yes that is correct.

> >  Prabhuji, I think with this we can arrive at the understanding that
> atman will be there in all these avasthas in swa-swarUpa, sAkshi chEta
> without getting affected a bit.  For him dreaming & waking world both
> are
> one & the same. Since in waker the waking world is there, similarly in
> the
> dreamer the dreaming world will be there with same intensity.  But in
> reality both worlds are UNREAL, but real in its own spheres &
> respective
> time & it is not interdependent. It will be an unwise decision if we
> think
> waking state is real & dreaming state is unreal or dependent on waking
> state.  Shruti says saptAnga yekOnavimshatimukhaH.

You got it right - that is why we have vyavahaarika satyam,
praatibhaasika satyam and paaramaarthika satyam. 

Hari OM!

> >  Prabhuji, kindly correct me if my understanding is not in line with
> advaita vedanta.
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> bhaskar

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

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