Kashmiri Shaivism

Shrinivas Gadkari sgadkari2001 at YAHOO.COM
Tue May 7 14:35:42 CDT 2002

Namaste Ashish and Jaldhar,

This is a common reply:

Pardon me if I assume incorrectly but I get the feeling that you hold jIvA
to be eternally separate from Brahman, and that the former must always be
engaged in some sort of effort to be in a constant state of liberation.

If your jIvA and mine are separate, why do we both see the same world? If
we were to meet, you would see me and I you. If you are my creation and I
am yours, then we are constantly creating the objects around us and what's
more, those objects are creating more objects, and in some cases, objects
that I create actually create me (as in me creating you and you, me). This
does not seem logical. But if you claim that the Ishvara is the only one
who creates (again, this is a fallacy as there is no such thing as creation
or destruction in the pAramArthik view), then it would make more sense.

The starting point of this discussion was the premise that I cannot assume
that there really exists anything independent of me. Everything else is
built on this basic fact. At no point did I mean to compromise on this
fundamental fact.

Please read all the postings in this thread carefully and correlate them
the issues that you have raised above have more or less been addressed.

Again, Jiva, Ishvara, Brahman are different states of being. The being
is the witness of these states fluctuating between these states. Suffering,
sadhana, etc pertain only to the state of Jiva.


In the Puranas Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesha are described as the saguna
Brahman (representing, rajas, sattva, and tamas respectively) while the
nirguna aspect is different--Narayana, or Sadashiva, or Jagadamba depnding
on the emphasis of the particular work.  It is the saguna aspect that
appears to be subject to curses, emotions etc. not the "supreme being"
The only reason I mentioned this is to lend support to the view that
there is no escape from Sadhana even for Brahama Vishnu and Mahesh.
At the same time, clearly almost everyone would agree that these
personalities are have conquered bondage.

But unless we agree on a world view, which we dont, we may as well
not discuss this.
> Such accounts make me suspect that one cannot assume that it is possible
> to establish oneself eternally in perfect yoga.

Of course not.  That is why the goal is to remove the bonds of time and
space altogether.  In mukti there is no more jiva thus there is none that
can fall.
I do not see how you can ever prove that it is possible to reach
a state from where there is no return to the world of duality.

> The Being in the state of Ishvara creates and in the state of Jiva
> experiences the creation. Network of attachment belongs to Jiva and
> the effect of this is Ishvara creating conditions that makes Jiva
> suffer.

Ok so Ishvara is the creator?  earlier you were saying the Jiva is the


It is like this: you dwell in your inherent nature of bliss, due to
your own impulse you desire to witness duality, by your maya shakti
you project some images and experience them, in the process generate
karma, and modify the images as per the karma, always resting in
bliss intermittently.

Now depending on what state you are in you use a different label
describe yourself: Brahman, Ishvara, Jiva etc


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