Can iishvara pull out a jiiva from bondage?

Jaldhar H. Vyas jaldhar at BRAINCELLS.COM
Wed Mar 22 12:49:51 CST 2000

On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, jkcowart at wrote:

> That, too, is maya.  Liberation is beyond words--even scriptures.


> >Why not pursue this game of saMsara for ever?
> Perhaps, because one eventually tires of it.

What makes one eventually tire of Maya?  This is also a form of desire.

> >From the point of view of jiiva the suffering is real. No amount of
> >intellectual reasoning can remove the pangs of this suffering.
> In psychological terms, the refusal to see things as they really are is
> called "neurosis."  In the spiritual sense, it is called "suffering."  The
> refusal to *stop* and *see* is the root of the problem either way.


> At some point, one comes to *recognize* one's own nature.  This
> is a complete perspectival shift from consciousness to awareness.  It
> does not come through being bound to the traditions, beliefs, or
> practices of *any* religion.  It is associated, instead, with the relin-
> quishment of all religious pathology.  Whatever is then followed,
> believed, or practiced without attachment is no obstruction.  It is
> simply the working out of one's kharma within the context of one's
> own dharma--as one waits.

Here's the thing, the Advaita Acharyas even though they taught it was
illusory supported religion.  Actually one particular religion--that of
the Vedas.  Why would they do that?  Because we (meaning the
entities participating in this mailing list) are beings of ordinary
consciousness not awareness.  We cannot just a priori assume that

There was a short story of I think, R.K. Narayana about how in some
village in the '60s there was a boy who heard on the radio about Neil
Armstrong landing on the Moon but nobody would believe him.  The idea that
we are down here and the Moon is up there out of reach is perfectly
reasonable and only a lunatic would think otherwise.  It is only after the
shift in perspective from knowing science that the idea becomes
reasonable.  In the case of Moksha we should ask ourselves what is it that
can cause that shift of awareness?  The answer cannot just be
waiting.  After all cows have been staring at the moon for millenia
without thinking of landing upon it.  Can illusionary beings
"naturally" realize they are illusionary?  There is that inner atma that
shines forth which provides the push.  And we know the nature of that atma
from the shastras.  So while they may be "mere" scaffolding, the shastras
and the religious practices therein are the key to moksha.

> This change in point of view (this true *seeing* that comes) is, at
> it's heart, a matter not of willing but of willingness.  The initiative
> does not rest with the jiva nature itself, yet will not be initiated
> absent the jiva's willingness.  Such willingness is not a matter of
> personal desire for release from suffering.  It arises from an inner
> intent to simply *see* without attachment to the seen.

But how can the inner witness intend anything?  It is that's all.  It is
the conscious jiva that desires the objects of samsara, then eventually
tires of them and desires liberation.  _Then_ desire is transcended.

> The struggle against suffering is a psychological quicksand.  The more
>one struggles, the more deeply mired one becomes.

For the most part, the philosophies that developed in India have not been
so pessimistic.  Even the Buddhists who recognized the truth of suffering
also held the hope that that suffering could be ended.

> Therefore, between the two of us, you and I have now convinced
> me of your premise--within the realm of imagic language . . . which
> also is maya.

Yes we should always remember this but also realize that we have no other
choice but to go through Maya to transcend it.

> We must take care, eh?  I have been told that one does not *see*
> until after one has *stopped* talking (especially to oneself).
> Absolute non-duality cannot be approached in the dualistic terms of
> language *or* consciousness.
> Better (for me, anyway) to *wait* and *watch* for *seeing* to come.
> Perhaps Ishvaras and elephant kings may do the same.  I really don't
> know.

Like the adage of the 10,000 monkeys with 10,000 typewriters eventually
coming up with the entire works of Shakespeare, it woul be possible given
the infinite length of time and the infinite variety of actions to
eventually achieve moksha but since we have the power of action why not
speed things up a bit?  Doubt is the stumbling block but that's the
function of Vedanta to eliminate the doubts.

Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at>

bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam

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