saguNa and nirguNa are the same
ramakris at EROLS.COM
Mon Dec 13 21:08:00 CST 1999
I have been wondering whether to even take part in this discussion
Let me see if I've understood you (Rama) correctly now.
You'll have to *read* my posts first for that.
Further he writes:
avidyaa is due to thoughts like "I am this (jIva)" and Shruti's
such as,"You are THAT" etc. remove this avidyaa because they go
to thoughts which are rooted in the ahaMkAra.
You're saying that ALL saguNopAsana stems from the thought "I am this
(jIva)" and the upAsana (worship) proceeds from this thought onto
such as "YOU are my savior" -- which in no way destroys the thought "I
Am I correct? If so, saguNopAsana such as worship of Vishnu, Shiva as
endowed with forms, etc. cannot directly lead to salvation. I think
is more or less obvious.
But what Anand said was that worship such as "This form that is the
will save me" can aid one in identification with that form and
lead to the destruction of the thought "I am this (jIva)." It is not a
direct approach, but an effective one, as this is prescribed by all
aachaaryas to common people such as ourselves..
You are telling me that whatever *I* have said is obvious and then
paraphrase what *I* said, and adopt a supercilious tone and have the
unmitigated crust to claim that's what Anand told me?!! Thankfully,
Anand and I clearly understand where we agree and disagree. I clearly
pointed out the role of upAsana or my understanding of it, including
Sri Mahasanndidhanams essay on it. What Anand and I were discussing
was whether *upAsana and GYAna can be combined*, that's where we
disagree. It is not the "obvious" thing you are quoting above. We had
no disagreements on this point.
I originally thought that you might have misunderstood me. Every post
you have deliberately misstated my position, when I have again and
again pointed out where Anand and I disagree. It is very clear that
you are using this whole thread just to heckle me, for what reason I
have no idea. I have been trying to remain patient just because I know
you personally. This supercilious post is really the limit.
bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam
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