[Advaita-l] Advaita Siddhi series 016 - dvitIya mithyAtva vichAra: (part 8)
agnimile at gmail.com
Thu Nov 9 01:49:17 EST 2017
I don't think what we both are saying are any different. It depends on what
we call the jnAni. You are referring to the jnAni as Atma with the mind
endowed with aparoksha brahmajnAna. I am talking of jnAni as the Atma based
on the shruti vAkya brahmavid brahmaiva bhavati. From a paramArthika
driShTi, you are talking of the jnAni's vyavahAra, from a vyAvahArika
Ultimately both viewpoints, if indeed they are two different viewpoints, is
by another shruti statement - nAham manye suvedeti, no na vedeti, veda ca.
I do not consider that I know it, nor that I do not know. I do know (as I).
On 9 Nov 2017 6:33 a.m., "V Subrahmanian" <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 11:32 AM, Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> Namaste Ravi Kiran ji
> एवमखण्डब्रह्मसाक्षात्कारात्पूर्वं परोक्षबोधेन प्रपञ्चस्य
> > व्यावहारिकत्वापहारे अपि प्रतीतिरनुवर्तत एव, अधिष्ठानाज्ञाननिवृत्तौ तु
> > नानुवर्तिष्यते | Similarly, prior to the direct impartite realisation of
> > Brahman, while the indirect knowledge (of advaita) will lead to the
> > falsification of the world's reality (vyAvahArikatva), the world will
> > continue to be seen. However, when the ignorance of the substratum is
> > destroyed, the experience and perception of the world will no longer
> >> the experience and perception of the world will no longer occur
> Can you elaborate on this (implication) ?
> with akhanda brahma sAkshAtkAra, there is no longer prapancha prateethi /
> Is it some continuous samAdhi experience, until the upAdhi drops/falls away
> of its own accord ?
> That the world ceases to appear and be experienced like it does for the
> ajnAni. The akhanDAkAra vritti has destroyed ajnAna and its effects, the
> world and the mind. As far as he is concerned there is neither world nor a
> mind to experience it. People observing him may superimpose a mind, body,
> jIvanmuktitvam, vyavahAra etc on him, but as far as he is concerned, none
> of it exists nor is it experienced by him.
Dear Venkat ji,
The above is one way of looking at it. However, in the Bhāṣya we have the
position: even though the mithyājyāna has been annulled, the jnani
continues to perceive, experience, the world, till the fall of his body.
This is termed 'bādhitānuvṛtti', the continuing of the negated thing.
Shankara has himself given this statement:
अकर्त्रात्मबोधोऽपि हि मिथ्याज्ञानबाधनेन कर्माण्युच्छिनत्ति ; बाधितमपि तु
मिथ्याज्ञानं द्विचन्द्रज्ञानवत्संस्कारवशात्कंचित्कालमनुवर्तत एव । अपि च
नैवात्र विवदितव्यम् — ब्रह्मविदा कञ्चित्कालं शरीरं ध्रियते न वा ध्रियत
इति । कथं हि एकस्य स्वहृदयप्रत्ययं ब्रह्मवेदनं देहधारणं च अपरेण
प्रतिक्षेप्तुं शक्येत ? श्रुतिस्मृतिषु च स्थितप्रज्ञलक्षणनिर्देशेन एतदेव
निरुच्यते । तस्मादनारब्धकार्ययोरेव सुकृतदुष्कृतयोर्विद्यासामर्थ्यात्क्षय
इति निर्णयः ॥ १५ ॥
Here Shankara says: There is no two opinion about 'whether the jnani will
hold the body for some time or not. How can anyone deny a person's direct
realization that he is Brahman and his holding the body? This alone is
described in the scripture in the context of the traits of a jnani.
In another statement: 4.1.19 too Shankara says this:
ननु सत्यपि सम्यग्दर्शने यथा प्राग्देहपाताद्भेददर्शनं द्विचन्
द्रदर्शनन्यायेनानुवृत्तम् , एवं पश्चादप्यनुवर्तेत — न, निमित्ताभवात् ।
उपभोगशेषक्षपणं हि तत्रानुवृत्तिनिमित्तम् , नच तादृशमत्र किञ्चिदस्ति
Here the pp asks: even when there is right knowledge, let the perception of
difference continue even after the fall of the body, just as it continued
before the fall of the body. The siddhantin replies: no, the nimitta for
such continuance is absent once the body has fallen. In other words, owing
to prarabdha continuing, the jnani also will be there in the same body.
If we do not admit this, then Shankara writing the bhashyam, a realized
acharya engaging in teaching, and thereby perpetuating the vidya, etc.
cannot be admitted. Thus, what I think the Advaita siddhi, means is: The
jnani will not take them to be real. I had also spoken about this to Sri
MDS after hearing the siddhi talk on this topic.
In the Gita bhashya also there are countless instances of the jnani's
actions, others taking him as a kartā but he knowing very well his
Swami Vidyaranya says:
सदा विचारयेत्तस्माज्जगत्ज्जीवपरात्मनः |
जीवभावजगद्भावबाधे स्वात्मैव शिष्यते ||6.12||
नाप्रतीतिस्तयोर्बाधः किन्तु मिथ्यात्वनिश्चयः |
नो चेत्सुषुप्तिमूर्च्छादौ मुच्येता यत्नतो जनः ||6.13||
परमात्मावशेषोऽपि तत्सत्यत्वविनिश्चयः |*न जगद्विस्मृतिर्नो
चेज्जीवन्मुक्तिर्न सम्भवेत् *||6.14||
12. Therefore one should always enquire into the nature of the world, the
individual Self and the supreme Self. When the ideas of Jiva and Jagat
(world) are negated, the pure Atman alone remains.
13. By 'negation' it does not mean that the world and Jiva cease to be
perceptible to the senses, it means the conviction of their illusory
character. Otherwise people would be automatically liberated in deep sleep
or in a faint.
14. ‘The supreme Self alone remains’ also means a conviction about Its
reality and *not non-perceiving or forgetting of the world.* Otherwise the
(scripture-proved) state of jIvanmukti itself will not be possible.
Thus, there is no inconsistency in / across Shankara's bhashyam. If Sri
Vidyamanya Tirtha Swamiji had understood this correctly he would not made
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