[Advaita-l] Who is Ishwara? He is NARAYANA only. Beautiful and soothing Narayana Bhajan
kalyan_kg at yahoo.com
Thu May 25 04:42:30 EDT 2017
//In Advaita the Atman is as though a samsāri. That means the Atman is not a samsari in truth. That is the correct position. Surely your position is not this. You think that the Upanishadic Brahman/Atman is really affected by avidya according to the Advaitin. That is not admitted by any Advaitin.//
Alright. Let us say I have not understood advaita correctly and the above is the correct position of advaita. So here we have, "Atman is in reality unaffected by ignorance", and "Atman appears to be affected by ignorance". These both statements summarize the advaitic position, as presented by you.
Now, if the Atman is appearing to be affected by ignorance, to whom does it appear that the Atman is under ignorance? Who is under the impression that the Atman is under the ignorance? It should be to the Atman itself for the Atman is the only conscious entity. Therefore, the Atman thinks that it is under ignorance when it is not really under ignorance. But, this is a contradiction since such a thinking itself is a real ignorance as the Atman is thinking mistakenly. So the Atman is under ignorance and free from ignorance, simultaneously. Thus, the advaitic position leads to a contradiction.
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 1:00 PM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Kalyan <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com> wrote:
Sri Subrahmanian, I have no issue if you interpret some Shruti mantras to show that the Atman/brahman is affected by avidya. Unlike others, I dont consider this position as heresy. In fact, I have been saying all along that in advaita, it is the Atman/brahman alone that can be affected by avidya and none else. So I thank you for acknowledging that fact. By bringing up these two mantras, you have shown that I understood advaita correctly.
That you have not understood advaita correctly is revealed by what you say below.
But simultaneously, advaita also says that the Atman can never be affected by avidya. THere are so many places where Shankara says this. Therefore, there is a contradiction in the position adopted by advaitins - that the Atman is affected by avidya and at the same time the Atman is not affected by avidya.
In Advaita the Atman is as though a samsāri. That means the Atman is not a samsari in truth. That is the correct position. Surely your position is not this. You think that the Upanishadic Brahman/Atman is really affected by avidya according to the Advaitin. That is not admitted by any Advaitin.
In that very bhashyam Shankara clearly says:
सर्वो हि लोकव्यवहारो ब्रह्मण्येव कल्पितो न परमार्थः सन्...
तस्मात् — यत्प्रविष्टं स्रष्टृ ब्रह्म, तद्ब्रह्म, वै - शब्दोऽवधारणार्थः, इदं शरीरस्थं यद्गृह्यते, अग्रे प्राक्प्रतिबोधादपि, ब्रह्मैवासीत् , सर्वं च इदम् ; किन्त्वप्रतिबोधात् ‘अब्रह्मास्मि असर्वं च’ इत्यात्मन्यध्यारोपात् ‘कर्ताहं क्रियावान्फलानां च भोक्ता सुखी दुःखी संसारी’ इति च अध्यारोपयति ; परमार्थस्तु ब्रह्मैव तद्विलक्षणं सर्वं च ।
That is the conclusion Shankara arrives at from the two mantras.
So, that 'Atman is affected by avidy'a and 'not affected by avidya' are from two different positions and therefore not at all a contradiction. Those who have not understood this correctly conclude that there is a contradiction in Advaita's stand.
However, enough has been discussed on this in the BVP thread recently and hence there is no need for further discussion. I pointed out the mantras for the sake of those who might not have seen the BVP thread.
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