[Advaita-l] A question on PariNAma and vivarta
kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com
Wed Feb 8 08:45:34 CST 2017
Krishnamoorthyji - PraNAms
Vidyaranya says even mud can be recovered when the pot is broken - requires little bit more effort that all while the reversion is more obvious for gold-ornaments. This is also discussed in the 13th Chapter.
From: R Krishnamoorthy via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; Praveen R. Bhat <bhatpraveen at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] A question on PariNAma and vivarta
Quite interesting discussion. Parinama is used for the irreversible change
of the inert matter as time passes by even without an lnterference by an
intelligent agent. Vivartha is an induced change by an intelligent agent.
This change is reversible and modifiable with certain qualifications. Gold
ornaments can be melted to gold but pot after its baking can not become
clay. I think this aspect is the cause for this discussion.
On 8 Feb 2017 16:17, "Praveen R. Bhat via Advaita-l" <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> Namaste Sadaji,
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 1:38 PM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
> kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I feel everyone missed - the relevance of question, in relation to the
> > Ch. 13 of Panchadashi - entitled brahmanande aatmananda.
> Perhaps a typo, you meant advaitAnanda.
> I think now I missing the point you're trying to make. Its surprising to
> see that you are pointing out everyone is missing your question after 40
> odd mails on the thread! Let me restate the problems raised by you, at
> least that is what I understood and replied earlier. Panchadashikara
> 1) "मृत्कुम्भ and सुवर्णकुण्डल as examples for परिणाम्युपादान instead of
> 2) रज्जुसर्प as विवर्तोपादान which is प्रातिभासिक।
> On the 2nd point, you wondered if there is any Upanishad that covers it and
> I named a few. On the 1st point, I will try to see it in the context of the
> chapter that you are specifically showing it to be out of place perhaps...
> > I am fully aware of the parinmana and vivara aspects - we are not
> > discussing here the general definitions but specifics in relation to the
> > title of the chapter
> The example is very much in the context of the chapter, but I understood
> that you made a very generic statement yourself that "he provides the next
> two example from Ch. Up which actually (in my understanding) should belong
> to vivarta. The next examples provided in the above sloka is - just as clay
> becoming pot and gold becoming ornament."
> Even in the context of the chapter, Maya is introduced later after
> establishing आनन्द itself as the उपादानकारण of the world. And as I said
> earlier, the definition we have for परिणाम and विवर्त may not be exactly so
> in that context. 13.8 defines परिणाम as अवस्थान्तरतापत्तिरेकस्य परिणामिता
> and 13.9 defines विवर्त as अवस्थान्तरभानं तु विवर्तः which restricts the
> example only to that, which व्याख्या also explains that deviation from
> earlier state so for परिणाम-- यथा क्षीरमृत्सुवर्णादीनां
> क्षीरादिव्यवहारयोग्यतां परित्यज्य दध्यादिव्यवहारयोग्यतापत्तिः। Just as curd
> does not remain in the same state as to make milk-like transactions with
> anymore, so too pot and bangle cannot be treated exactly like clay and gold
> in transactions, respectively. That much is the example for categorisation.
> and its contents and in relation to Vedanta.
> I would say that I was connecting it to Vedanta alone, while you seem to be
> connecting it to science also. Considering that, I'll skip a para...
> > ...
> > We can come up justifications why he lists gold-ring as parinaama along
> > with milk-curds in the beginning and later exhaustively analyzes
> > differentiating them as vivarta and parinaama. My word was 'I was
> > by this'.
> We don't need to come up with justifications, Vidyaranya Muni himself
> expected this getting puzzled. Please refer to shloka 13.51. which says:
> क्षीरादौ परिणामोऽस्तु पनस्तद्भाववर्जनात्। एतावता मृदादीनां दृष्टान्तत्वं न
> हीयते। The व्याख्या explains this further as: एतावता क्षीरादेः परिणामित्वेन
> मृदादीनां सुवर्णादीनां दृष्टान्तत्वं विवर्तदृष्टान्तभावो न हीयते न नश्यति।
> अयमभिप्रायः -- क्षीरस्य
> मृत्स्य्वर्णयोस्तु अवस्थान्तरोत्पत्तिसद्भावेऽपि
> Please note the specific words एवकार with milk-curd example and usage of
> अपि with clay-pot and ornament-gold
> that makes it clear that while the milk-curd example is only for परिणाम,
> the latter two fit with both, bringing me back to my earlier response as to
> going with only the commonality between the example and exemplified.
> If you are happy with your explanations, that is fine.
> Sadaji, the explanation given was not for my happiness although आत्मनस्तु
> कामाय सर्वं प्रियं भवति :)
> > Here as Vidyaji points out that we are only dealing with upaadanana
> > kaaraNa where sruti statement itself applies. Abhinna nimitta upaadana
> > kaaraNam comes later with Ikshata statement.
> By the starting verses of the 13th chapter, it appears that Vidyaranya Muni
> is indicating अभिन्ननिमित्तोपादानकारण because he starts with आनन्द as
> उपादान itself.
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