[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** RE: shankara speaking on behalf of or speaking to ??
bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com
Tue Dec 12 02:00:14 EST 2017
praNAms Sri Chandramouli prabhuji
Pardon me for the belated reply.
Let me first clarify “enjoying”. It means “experiencing”.
Ø Don’t you think prabhuji for ‘experiencing’ anything there is a requirement of triad i.e. jnAtru, jneya and jnana?? IMHO, anubhava cannot take place until and unless there is a anubhavi as individual in the jnAni. This anubhavi has to differentiate himself from the objects that is giving him anubhava. In that case it is not bAdhita it is vyAvahArika dvandva where duality holds sway.
Consider a person witnessing a movie intently, at the same time eating popcorn ( a very common thing after interval). At the end of the film, the pop corn packet is empty. But he hardly remembers to have eaten. Does he have “pramAtRtva” or “bhOktRtva” as far as eating is concerned. I do not think so. Eating in such a case is practically an involuntary act.
Ø That means jnAni is neither bhOktru nor kartru the prArabdha karma phala which he is experiencing is involuntary/automatic like blinking of eye, breathing, heart beats etc. it would happen on its own (guNA guNeshu vartante) without involvement of individuality of a jnAni. In short prArabdha karma phala is neither enjoyment nor experience when it is actually happening to the jnAni.
We can now extend this to the case of a jnAni. All prarabdha karma phalas are like “eating”. He may “enjoy” them as “bhOktR” (pramAtR) or he may not even notice them (like the movie watcher) in which case he is not a “bhOkR” (pramAtR) in the sense of “enjoying” or “experiencing” them. There are no dharmic restrictions for the jnAni for “enjoying” the phalas. This is essentially dependent on the residual vAsanAs (elaborated later in the post).
Ø Does it not mean, prArabdha karma phala is like purusha taNtra phala like he may enjoy it, may not enjoy it or enjoy it in another way?? That means on the prArabdha karma phala a jnAni has the ‘control’ i.e he may enjoy, may not enjoy. Then it is not an arrow which has already left the bow on which shooter does not have any control !!
I did not say “ bhOktrutva is because of prArabdha karma phala “, but that prArabdha karma phala relates only to bhOktrutva and not to kartRtva. For his current actions a jnAni may or may not have kartRtva and/or bhOtRtva as explained earlier in this post. I hope I am clear on the point.
Ø Sorry, I am not getting this point. You are telling prArabdha karma phala relates only to bhOktrutva and at the same time you are also saying jnAni is may be bhOktru or may not bhOktru. And I am not sure why this ambiguous scenario can be extended to kartru and kartavyaM as well since we are seeing some actions from jnAni-s like dharma prachAra, bhikshAcharya, gruhasthAshrama dharma paripAlana by gruhastha jnAni-s etc. !!??
Reg << So the jnAni is an individual, he has the BMI, he will have the parichinnatva is his own BMI even after having the knowledge that he is nirupAdhika tureeyAtma. As a result of this parichinnatva he would continue to ‘enjoy’ his karma phala and continue to do sAdhana to negate the vAsana. >>,
Yes concerning first part. As to whether he undertakes further sadhanas or not is entirely at his discretion. There is no compulsion. He is assured of freedom from future births irrespective of his actions. However if he desires to reap the full benefits of Brahmavidya, which is the recommended goal in the Sidhanta, then he may need to pursue further sadhanas to achieve the same.
Ø Kindly elaborate this statement bit more. Does not samyak jnana in a samyak jnAni have the capacity to ‘reap’ the full benefits of brahmavidyA?? Your statement appears to me in such a way that a saMyak jnAni, if he ‘desires’ for the ‘full’ benefit has to do further sAdhana !!?? I could see traces of ‘prasaMkhyAna’ here if I am not wrong. And more importantly it shows that jnAni even after realizing that he is nothing but brahman, continues to be individual jnAni ( not in the sight of outsiders, he himself thinks so like a wave realizing that it is nothing but water but at the same time maintaining the ‘shape’ of wave) and this individuality does not get effaced even after the physical death (shareera pAta) and these individual jnAni-s do have to incarnate again (like apAntaratama-s) if they have been instructed by parameshwara. So, these are all not vyavahArika satya, even after samyak jnana, pAramArtika jnana, a jnAni jeeva sees the ajnAni jeeva, see the other ordinary jnAni jeeva-s and also parameshwara. A highly elevated jnAni-jeeva-s (jnAni-s like apAntaratama-s) unlike ordinary jnAni jeeva-s will be instructed by parameshwara, if required they ( shreshTa jnAni-s) again drag their residual prArabdha and incarnate to do dharma prachAra like vyavahAra (waves) purely and entirely based on pAramArthika (water).
Reg << In which way traces of avidyA would affect the paramArtha jnAni and how this can be differentiated from the prArabdha karma phala.>>,
I hope this is covered above. Traces of avidya which prevent achieving the full benefits of Brahmavidya relate to the need for vAsanAkshaya and manOnAsha.
Ø Since your goodself know my arguments (ofcourse based on Sri SSS’s observations ) with regard to this avidyA lesha in a paramArtha jnAni I donot want to get into this topic. Na cha vidyAvidye ekasya purushasya saha bhavataH, virOdhAt tamaH prakAshAviva..if a person has the even tip of the hair of ajnAna (vAlAgramAtrAvapi) then he is NOT paramArtha jnAni. Anyway this topic is done and dusted let us not pursue this again.
Hopefully I have conveyed my understanding reasonably on all the issues raised by you.
Ø Yes prabhuji, you covered everything. Thanks for your time and patience.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
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